I don't want anybody else

Ashley: Dude. Prudie's chat re: masturbating college roommates.

Lulu: What.

Ashley: Read it.

Q. Lights Out Happy Time: I am a freshman at college. My roommate is pretty great—except for one thing. I'm pretty sure she "takes care of herself" after we turn out the lights and she thinks I'm asleep. The motions and noises she makes are consistent with this theory. I have no problem with her doing that, but it makes me uncomfortable that she does it while I'm in the room. I'm also absolutely mortified about possibly discussing this with her. They did not cover this in freshman orientation, so I'm counting on you for some insight.

A: I'm going to suggest this is covered under the same rubric as bathroom noises—you pretend you don't hear them. Once the lights are out and all is quiet, you are in a zone of assuming each of you is drifting off to sleep, and if under the covers she indulges in some quiet stress relief to help bring on pleasant dreams, I think you should ignore it. Instead of lying there anxiously listening for the sounds of self-gratification, just tell yourself your roommate tends to toss and turn before the delta waves hit. Unless to accomplish her task your roommate brings out a screaming, high-decibel vibrator, talking about this with her, or a resident adviser, is going to just be mortifying for you. Look, the school year is almost over, your roommate decided she couldn't get through freshman year going hands-off, and there's not really any other time or place for her to indulge herself. Just think of this as one of those "out of classroom" learning experiences admissions officers are always touting.

Ashley: How... how is this a problem? Why don't people do this in the shower?? Why would you choose a room that has other people in it??

Lulu: If it's a big school with small dorms, all the rooms could have other people in them. They could be communal showers too. Shower stalls, like at the gym. I've seen dorms like that.

Ashley: True. But at least the sound of the water will cover it up.

Lulu: yYah, it's a little more private, at least in the way cubicles are private--you know, the illusory way. The LW could also establish regular patterns of not being in the room at certain times. That might help.

Ashley: You'd think they would have non-overlapping classes. Unless the LW doesn't attend classes.

Lulu: They might just both be out of the dorm during the day then at home at night? Or the LW doesn't have predictable routine, so the roomie always thinks she might walk in at any time anyway.

Ashley: Yeah, I guess she can develop a new activity and mention it. "I've picked up a study group that meets EVERY DAY from 9pm to 10pm!" More library time can't hurt.

Lulu: Or develop a wildly different sleep schedule. So be studying in the common area while the roommate is going to bed, and come in when she's asleep. Surely her dorm has a lounge or something.

Ashley: Yeah. Start watching TV at a set time. Or go to bed really early, and be asleep by then.

Lulu: I think we knocked that one out of the park. We know our stuff when it comes to hiding masturbation routines, APPARENTLY.

The Abby Game

Now it's time for a game! I'm going to read you a letter, and you tell me what Abby advised.

Feb 29: Should student spill beans on her prof's behavior?

I am a 19-year-old student taking courses at a community college. One of my classes is taught by a great professor who also works at a state college teaching other teachers.

After an evening class with him one night, I returned to the classroom because I forgot something and ended up walking with him back to the parking lot.

While putting stuff into my car I saw him get into another student's car. I waited a while without them realizing I was there and ended up seeing my professor and this student smoking weed and fooling around.

I feel angry and betrayed knowing he would put his career in danger. They are both consenting adults, but I don't know whether I should report it or not. What do you think?

Did Abby:
(a) Reiterate the problem but not offer advice
(b) Come down hard on the side of telling, scolding the LW for even considering staying silent
(c) Come down hard on the side of staying silent, scolding the LW for even considering telling

Answer:

Notes!

Reader mail! Rosalie alerted us to an awesome smackdown of an advice column suggesting that a 14-year-old lesbian should remain in the closet. Thanks, Rosalie! The original letter appeared in the Dear Lizzie column of the Pennsylvania Patch newspaper, which we may have to start following.

Now, we move onto college. In April 14's Miss Manners, a student doesn't want to share notes!

I am a college student with a question about the etiquette of borrowing notes. It has taken me a long time and a lot of hard work to get to college, as I’ve been financially independent since high school. Now that I’m actualizing my goals of higher education, I take my studies seriously and make a point to not skip class, to do my homework, to understand the material, etc.

There is a girl who was in a couple of my same classes last term and is again currently. She is an excuse maker, and she is constantly behind. She asks me for help. Last week, she asked to borrow notes. I said okay but told her to return them before next class so I could keep my notes in order.

Surprise, she didn’t show up. She brought my notes back to class today, but, since she missed class again on Monday, now wants to borrow those notes. I find it rude that she would ask for a favor, not uphold my conditions, and then ask for another.

I’ve turned down her requests for help in the past, but she keeps asking. I am sick of hearing her self-pitying; none of her excuses are justifiable for consistent lagging (i.e. oversleeping, slow bus, etc.), nor are they more serious than any of the challenges I’ve overcome to be here. Life is hard, so is college; stop making excuses and get to work.

How do I politely tell her that I am not her personal tutor?

Miss Manners responds,

You have a perfect excuse in that your classmate did not abide by the terms you set when lending her your notes. Yet you have fresh experience of how annoying excuses are.

Miss Manners assures you that no such evidence is necessary — nor is using one desirable. Excuses invite the persistent to argue back. You would only bring on another round of her excuses and unreliable promises.

Lulu: I'm not anti-nerd. I'm not anti-take-good-notes or anti-do-well-in-school. I like all of those things! (Although I did not take good notes.) But this LW really rubs me the wrong way, and it's not just the word "actualize." It's pretty clear that the thing about keeping notes in order is an excuse, and the LW doesn't want to share because he (I'll assume it's a he) doesn't think the asker deserves them. He feels put-upon that he has to do all the work and some people GET AWAY WITH DOING NOTHING. I can't stand that attitude.

Granted, the asker sounds like a tool, too--if you borrow something, you should return it before the other person needs it--but what's the big deal with giving out your notes? Why do you have to be possessive of them? Why can't we help each other, regardless of the moral fortitude of our peers?

That said, since he believes that hard work is a sign of virtue and failing to prioritize academics is a sign of worthlessness, he could at least make an effort to find out if the reason she can't make it to class is because of obstacles (e.g. job, family responsibilities, learning difference) or priorities (prefers to sleep, active social life, overloaded on other classes etc.) "Overslept" could mean "I was partying" or "I was working the night shift to PUT MYSELF THROUGH COLLEGE."

But if he doesn't want to share his notes, he should just say so. It seems like the only reason he's doing it is because he's dimly aware that refusing would make it look like he's being uptight, but since that is what he is doing, he should just be honest about it.

Ashley: Or he could just photocopy them.

College visit

In today's Dear Abby, a girl wants to visit her boyfriend at college.

I am a 17-year-old senior in high school. My boyfriend, "Kenny," is 18 and goes to college five hours away. I'd like to visit him over the weekend sometime, but I need my parents' permission. Mom is OK with it, as long as I take the train (she doesn't want me driving that distance alone) and I pay for it. Dad is old-fashioned. He dislikes the fact that Kenny and I would be unsupervised in his dorm for a whole weekend, even though Kenny has a roommate.
We've been together for a long time and have been unsupervised before, but Dad's still uneasy. He treats me like I'm younger than my age. I'm almost 18 and have traveled alone by plane. I'm respectful to my parents and feel I deserve Dad's trust.

Kenny and I love each other, but having a long-distance relationship is difficult since we hardly get to see each other. Dad likes and approves of Kenny, but thinks it's "unnecessary" for me to visit him since we call, Skype and text each other often. How can I get my father to see my point of view?

Abby responds,

You probably can't - but your mother may be able to, which is why you should enlist her help in talking to your father for you. However, if that doesn't work, the alternative would be for Kenny to travel to visit you when he's able to get away for a weekend.

Abby is on a roll of giving rather permissive advice lately; she's not really helpful here, but she at least seems to imply that if it were up to her, she would let the girl go. Of course, Ashley and I are more strongly in the teen's corner, but so what else is new?

Lulu: Do you think there are logical arguments she could use to make her case, or is her dad just not going to change his mind because his thing is very emotional and it's about not letting his little girl go off and have sex?

Ashley: Well, I mean, has she had sex?

Lulu: She doesn't say. She sort of neatly avoids the issue, but I feel like it must be on her mind. The "We've been unsupervised before and nothing happened!" argument was always one my friends and I would pull out when we wanted to do sleepovers or trips with our boyfriends and girlfriends, with equal vehemence whether we planned to have sex or not.

Ashley: She's already tried the "the trust my word" approach and it didn't get her very far.

Lulu: Actually, it seems to be more like the "see, we totally won't have sex - the ROOMMATE WILL BE THERE!" approach. Which I feel is less effective than a straight-up, honest, "trust my word" approach. "Listen, I know you're worried that I'll have sex over the weekend, but I'm promising you that I won't; that's not what this is about; I just want to spend time with somebody whom I love and who lives far away."

Ashley: If she already has had sex, she might as well come clean and say she's not a virgin, so his worst fear has already come true. In fact, I might say that even if I were a virgin.

Lulu: I don't know that it's necessarily all about purity. If your parents think you are too young to have sex, but you have already had sex, they still want you to not have MORE sex.

Ashley: Really? Because I think the first time might matter way more.

Lulu: They don't want you to have babies. Sure, you got lucky SO FAR with zero babies...

Ashley: Then the argument is that you know what a condom is.

Lulu: Condoms break Ashley.

Ashley: You know what an abortion clinic is?

Lulu: Well, THAT'S not helpful. You getting an abortion is a worst-case scenario. Depending on the parents, they might even prefer you to have a baby at 17. But either way, we're playing out exactly the conversation she shouldn't have. I think she's cannily avoiding mentioning sex for a reason; she doesn't even want her parents to know it's on her mind.

Ashley: I'm just suggesting alternate routes. If her don't-mention-it / trust-me approach doesn't work, she has several options:

1) wait till she's 18
2) argue that she'll have safe sex
3) just get on the train and go

Lulu: There is something to be said for asking for forgiveness not permission, but it could be a huge shitstorm. She should exhaust all alternate routes first. Do you think the "I need to see what college life is like" approach will get her anywhere? Obviously, she can't claim it's her #1 reason for wanting to go.

Ashley: Yeah, not really. Maybe "I'll be in college in 6 months anyway"? If he doesn't think she can control herself over a weekend, how the hell will she do for the rest of her life?

Lulu: Yeah, I do think it's logical to be like, listen, I'm about to be on my own, baby steps are better than just suddenly being dumped from the nest. Also, I'll sleep on the couch! (I won't sleep on the couch.)

I don't drink; how come my friends don't ask me to the bar anymore?

Another drinking question--or rather a not-drinking question--in yesterday's Dear Abby:

Dear Annie: I am 19 years old and a sophomore in college. I have a large circle of friends who are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Or so I thought.

I have never been one to drink or party, not because I looked down on it, but simply because it wasn't my scene. When I entered college, I made new friends who enjoyed going out and drinking every weekend. I thought I might be missing something, so I went along. After a semester of this, I realized that the partying could be fun, but I didn't much like the way I felt after a weekend of drinking. I preferred socializing sober.

About the same time, I also decided to improve my health with meticulously planned workouts and a strict diet that left no room for empty alcohol calories. I loved my new healthier lifestyle, but my friends did not. They began badgering me every weekend to drink with them and gave me a hard time if I refused to eat deep-dish pizza and onion rings.

After a month or two, they began excluding me from their plans altogether. I was hurt. I never condemned them for their choices and would never preach to them. I don't understand why I should be left out because I make different food and drink choices.

I don't want to ditch my friends entirely. It would be next to impossible to find a group of college students who don't behave the same way, and I don't want to live in isolation. How can I stick to my healthy lifestyle without my friends intentionally excluding me from their social lives?

Abby responds:

This is not an uncommon problem. There is tremendous peer pressure to drink in college, and most people are aware of the "freshman 15" pounds that many students pack on due to the junk food and irregular eating habits. We commend you for choosing a healthier path. But even without preaching, your friends may be uncomfortable around you. You are a walking reminder of their riskier choices.

Explain to them how hurt you are by the exclusion. But also look for new friends, perhaps in the gym or cafeteria or through university organizations.

Darnell: I wonder if she got excluded because she stopped going out with them, and is just sad that she can now no longer turn down their invitations. Usually after the twentieth invitation turned down because somebody doesn't really like to drink, you stop inviting them out to drink.

Lulu: True. She can't be hurt that they don't invite her if she never goes, or if when she does go, she complains and obviously doesn't have fun.

Darnell: And maybe she should stop being such a crybaby. "Oh my friends poke fun at my life choices!" It is called having friends, get used to it. Call them a bunch of alcoholic fatties, have a good laugh and move on.

Lulu: To the extent that I agree with Abby, it's only that she could maybe make some friends who share her interests more. It doesn't sound like she has a whole lot in common with them--that's the problem. I certainly don't think she is a "walking reminder of their riskier choices".

Darnell: The description of her workout and diet routine does not make her sound like a fun person. Meticulous planning and fun college times do not often go together.

Lulu: I don't invite you to beta read my fan fiction, but it's not because you are a walking reminder of my, uh, girlier, sexually deviant, nerdier choices.

Darnell: Right, and I don't invite you on my homeless killing sprees but it isn't because you are a reminder of my lost humanity and innocence. If she is a walking reminder of their riskier choices, it is because she is actually reminding them out loud of how she is making awesome choices and they are not.

Lulu: Even if she makes a conscious effort not to look down on them for not treating their bodies like temples or whatever, it still seems like she is making it clear that they are not as important to her as her rules. And that's fine, everyone has priorities, but she can't complain about it when they notice.

Darnell: Clearly she can! But yes, she shouldn't. You know the reality of this letter is going to be that her friends are worried because she is now anorexic. Instead of making fun of her for not eating fatty foods, they are just pleading, teary-eyed, for her to eat something.

Lulu: Maybe she should build some freebie points into her diet. So she can have like... one drink a month. That wouldn't be so bad, would it?

Darnell: No, that would ruin her diet forever.

Lulu: She knows she wants it. Everybody's doing it. But really, it does seem like her main problem is that she wants to hang out with them without doing the things they like to do. That seems like an impossible request.

Darnell: They never want to go on a twenty mile hike with a picnic made entirely of wheatgrass wah!

Lulu: That's the thing! Has she even asked that? This question is all about negatives--what she doesn't want to do, what they don't do. They're not going to randomly ask her to go to the ice cream social if the bar works for them. She's the one who has to suggest activities that would be acceptable to her. They might just be assuming that because she always turns down their invitations, she's not interested in them anymore, or they might just not know what to ask her to do that she would actually agree to. I don't think she should explain to them how hurt she is--not if she doesn't like mockery--but she should occasionally ask them to do something with her. Something specific.

Darnell: Right, go out to a movie or.... Other... stuff. That isn't drinking. That there is.

Lulu: The aquarium!!!

Darnell: Stop suggesting the aquarium!

Lulu: I like the penguins.

Darnell: I didn't want to bring this up, but I had a bad experience with a penguin in my youth.

Lulu: I initially read that as, "I had a bad experience with a penguin in my mouth."

Darnell: Well that is part two of the story. His little tuxedo was a lie, he was no gentleman.

Two semesters from retirement

Today's Dear Abby finds another question from a parent worried about their irresponsible child, college, and how much to pay for.

DEAR ABBY: Our son, "Jason," has decided to leave college with only two semesters left. He says he's doing so in order to pursue his love of river guiding and outdoor programs.

While he was in school, his father and I paid for his cell phone, health and car insurance, and his rent because we wanted his focus to be on his studies. We also paid his tuition. Jason has a part-time job. Now that he has decided to leave school, our view is that he should find another job and assume these expenses.

My husband and I disagree about who should pay for any future education that Jason wants. If he goes back to school, his tuition will be paid for, says Dad. I think we would be enabling him if he thought we were always standing by to foot the bill.

We are heartsick that Jason has made this decision, but his mind is made up. Any advice from you would be appreciated.

- Unhappy Mom in Mississippi

We don't really disagree with Abby's advice, but as usual, we find t a little short and unsatisfying. In its entirety:

I agree that Jason should shoulder the responsibility for his living expenses. However, do not make any hard and fast decisions about his tuition while you are still angry at him. This situation will surely play out. If and when Jason decides to complete his education, that would be the time to discuss the matter of tuition.

Lulu: It's like with our Frivolous Wastes of Money column: the parents are considering withholding something they want the son to have as a punishment for the son. They're only hurting themselves.

Ashley: It's two lousy semesters. He should just finish the degree. At the same time, it's two lousy semesters' worth of money; a lot, but not compared to what they've already spent.

Lulu: I suppose they think he will make the calculation and realize he should stay in school for free (to him) rather than put it off and have to pay for it himself later. But if he were making decisions according to the calculations, he would just wait the eight measly months to become a forest ranger.

This is why I do think that kids should help pay for college, if their parents do (ie. if they don't get a full scholarship): so they have some personal investment in the cost-benefit analysis. But in this case, I don't think it's just that he's being selfish with the money because he thinks it's infinite. He doesn't seem to want the degree at all. Even if it were his own money, he wouldn't necessarily consider it worth his time and attention.

Ashley: I mean, at some level, if you know you won't use it, it's best not to proceed: sunk costs and all that. But does that really apply to a college degree? It seems like it'll never hurt to have one. A lot of jobs require a bachelor's in anything.

Lulu: Because of classism!

Ashley: For him specifically, it seems like he could use, for example, a BS in Environmental Science.

Lulu: I guess he just feels he doesn't need it. He can do what he wants without it.

Ashley: I can respect the choice not to go to college in the first place, but what I don't respect is if you go, almost complete it, and then drop out. A big waste of time and money, just because you can't make up your mind or you let people push you around.

Lulu: A lot of teenagers don't know their own mind. Maybe he didn't know he would hate college until he got there. It would be nice if you could make that decision snappily, for the sake of your parents' bank accounts, but I can see how it would go wrong. Kid says he wants to drop out to save the parents money, parents say, no, no, don't worry about the money, I just want you to get the degree. Repeat. I respect this kid more because he has a plan - half-baked as his parents may find it.

Ashley: Sure. But what he's doing is not time sensitive. He can't do river guiding next year?

Lulu: I kind of find his impatience charming because it shows he's enthusiastic about this.

Ashley: I don't find it endearing when people drop stuff that will help for sure in order to do something they're "passionate about". I find it boring and immature.

Lulu: Well, there's levels. You can't do it all the time.

Ashley: There are definite points at which it makes sense to change stuff, and if you want to change stuff between those points, there better be a damn good reason, especially when the next point is very close.

Lulu: You don't understand! He's suffocating in this ivory tower of academia!

Ashley: Yeah, and soon he will be suffocating under the pressure of rent payments. How's he going to get out of that one?

Lulu: We'll see. I think he'll be okay. Fly free, little river guide. Either way, his motives are irrelvant. He's made his choice. The parents are asking what they should do.

Ashley: It seems that the husband wants to extend the offer of free tuition if he ever decides to go back and the wife doesn't. So split the difference? Half-tuition? I think it's a moot point because I don't think he'll go back.

Lulu: That's what Abby was saying, too. Address that if and when he decides to go back.

Ashley: Yeah, but a lot of people don't want a possible fight hanging over their heads. She wanted to have it settled now. You can always review your decision.

Lulu: So, sure. Half tuition. But it's probably moot.

Ashley: Moot!

Choosing the college that's right for you

Today Ashley and I address a topic of unnecessarily overarching importance to many young advice seekers: choosing the Right College For You.

From Annie's Mailbox, May 22, 2007:

Dear Annie: I am 17 years old and going to be a senior in high school in the fall. Pretty soon, I will be making some very important decisions about my future and choosing where I want to go to college. I get nearly straight A's and could probably get into most of the places I plan to apply to. Here's my dilemma:

My boyfriend of almost two years is already in college and wants me to go to the same school he does. His college is an OK school, but nothing spectacular, and I feel I could do a lot better. I looked at several of the colleges near his, but frankly, none of them appeals to me.

I want to be with my boyfriend because we've already been apart for the past year and I miss him. What should I do?

Annie, of course, tells the writer to forget the boyfriend and pursue the very highest level of education possible. And while we understand Annie's point--the relationship is not likely to make it past Thanksgiving of freshman year whether she goes to his school or not, and What College You Went To is forever--we question the givens (i.e., that What College You Went To really matters.)

Ashley: Look, I went to a school to be with my boyfriend, and even though we broke up in the first year, it was still the best choice for me.

Lulu: You met me!

Ashley: Aside from that. Sometimes the worse school is the better choice.

Lulu: You get out of classes what you put into them--whether it's Harvard or Community College of Bumblefuck. You can have a great or a terrible academic experience anywhere.

Ashley: Right, and the instructors at smaller/less prestigious schools are often more engaged than the hardcore academic professors.

Lulu: On the other hand, it seems kind of like she's made up her mind that, for whatever reason, she doesn't want to go to her boyfriend's school, and she just wants validation. After all, she wrote into Annie.

Ashley: Her reasons for not wanting to may go away when it's a difference between "free college education" and "$100k in debt." Look, if you want to study engineering, and you get into MIT, Stanford, or CalTech, you go, no questions asked. But other than that, it just doesn't matter.

Lulu: Right, or RISD for art.

Ashley: Suuure. Art.

Lulu: I think leaving it up to money is honestly the best strategy, because it's emotionally neutral. It's hard to regret saving thousands of dollars. The school doesn't have to be so wonderful that it beats the joy of being near the boyfriend, and the boyfriend doesn't have to be so wonderful he's worth turning down Brown--wherever she ends up, the relationship or the reputation of the school are bonuses, not Reasons She Changed Her Life. She should apply everywhere, and go to whichever school ends up being cheapest.

Ashley: Or whichever one accepts her. "Almost" straight As isn't that great.

Lulu: I hate you.

Parents can also complicate the college choice, and as this letter writer found out in a Dear Abby column of December 13, 2008, advice columnist side with the parents.

DEAR ABBY: I am a senior in high school, and my friends and I are all looking at different colleges. I have one friend whose parents are all about deciding what is right for him and won't let him make the final decision as to where he should go. They believe that choosing a college is all about connections and what careers make the most money.

Shouldn't my friend be able to pursue his dream of becoming a writer and attend the college of his choice? Should his parents be able to make the decision about where he should go?

Lulu: The question is, do the parents have the right to choose the school, if they are the ones paying for it?

Ashley: Yes. Yes they do.

Lulu: Okay, yeah, I mean, it's their money, but don't they have some kind of a responsibility to let the kid start to make his own, adult choices?

Ashley: Not if his adult choice means I'm paying $100k for art history.

Lulu: It's going to be a waste of money anyway if they pack a kid off to LSE if he hates math, you know? You can refuse to pay for Sarah Lawrence, but you can't make him be motivated to become a manager.

Ashley: I'd offer less money for certain majors.

Lulu: So complicated. You'd have to come up with a whole system.

Ashley: I'd do it. $100k for engineering, $20k for English.

Lulu: Yeah, I mean, that's rational. I'm not saying I'm against it. I just think he needs to go to hell his own way.

Ashley: That's your answer to everything, isn't it?

Lulu: It is my generalized parenting philosophy, yes. Didn't you feel bad for those kids in college who were always arguing with their parents about why they didn't want to study finance? Half the time their parents were misinformed about what majors would be useful by the time they graduated, anyway. They can't be micromanaging his adult life.

Ashley: In that case, they shouldn't give him any money.

Lulu: Right, but lots of parents, if they can afford it, want their kids to go to college. I mean, I bet they'd also be pissed if he chose not to go to college because he wouldn't accept money on their terms. I see Abby's point, but if it were the parents writing in, I feel like I'd want to tell them not to intervene in what the kid studies.

Ashley: But they didn't write in.

Lulu: True. I still don't think the parents are right, but in the end, it really doesn't matter. You can't make people give you money when they don't want to.

Ashley: I don't think the parents are right, but I don't think expecting them to pay in the first place is a good idea. It's great if they do, but it's your life.

Lulu: Right. Whether or not the parents are right is ultimately academic. Even if they were denying you something you really believed was your right--food or going to high school or something--the best thing to do isn't to whine that it's unfair, but to say "fuck em" and find some way to do without them.

Ashley: You can really see paying $100k for your kid to get an English degree?

Lulu: Oh hell no. My kids are getting scholarships or going to state.

Ashley: $100k is what state costs, these days.

Lulu: My kids are getting scholarships or apprenticing with a plumber.

Ashley: Oh, a plumber? What on eaaaaaaarth is that?

College is great, but if what you want out of college (as most people do) is to learn some things and meet some people, then you can be happy anywhere there's students and teachers together in one place. Most high school students are unsure about what they want to ultimately study, so the only rational way to make the decision is based on (a) what you can best afford, taking into account scholarships and parents' willingness to pay, and (b) "irrational" reasons, such as the location of your boyfriend/friends/favorite city/favorite climate/where your whimsy takes you. So don't stress out: wherever you go, there you are.