What it takes to get along

Yesterday's Cary Tennis dealt with money in relationships.

I have been dating a wonderful man for six years... I could see myself marrying this man.

Here is the rub: He is cheap. Not thrifty, CHEAP. Since we started dating, we have split everything (meals, gas, etc.) but we both make about the same salary and I was raised to pay for myself so this never bothered me. What bothers me is when he picks up a stamp for me while he is at the post office and then asks me for the 44 cents. What bothers me is that when he comes to my place for dinner (about five nights a week), he doesn't bring anything. If we go to a party thrown by his friends, he expects me to help pay for the wine we bring, but if we go to a party thrown by my friends, I'm on my own to pay for it. If I run out of money and need to borrow a dollar, he is damn sure to get that dollar back from me. He won't go certain places if he has to drive (even a few blocks) because he doesn't want to pay for gas. It's crazy. This is unlikely an actual money issue as he came from a well-to-do family, has enough money to live comfortably and frequently buys himself very nice things. ...

He will go out of his way for me: He is very generous to me with his affection and time. But, when it comes to cash, he is just absurdly cheap, and his strange deal with money makes me think that there is some deeply selfish side to him that is being reflected in this cheapness. ...

Am I making a mountain out of a molehill or is his cheapness indicative of some bigger problem? If so, how do I possibly bring this up to him without sounding like a gold digger?

This is one of Cary's longwinded days, so I'm providing only excerpts of his response.

You could give him an invoice.

He might dispute some charges. For instance, on the

bottle of wine for the party: 1/2

he might dispute his share because he didn't drink any of it. You would have to say: Note the

category: gifts.

On the postage stamp thing, if you give him a postage stamp, bill him

$USD 0.44 first class postage, 1

Give him a monthly invoice of all the charges for which he is in arrears. See if he will write you a check for those things.

If you're going to marry each other you're going to be using money together all the time. You're going to be eating together and buying groceries and cars.

You are going to have to get to know what money means to each of you...

Here is something you can do together about money that may be fun:

Put a jar on the kitchen counter.

When he comes over for dinner, ask him to put any spare change he has into the jar. Say it is a jar you are saving money into so that you and he can go do something cool. Then when the jar is full you and he can take the money out and go into the world together and do something cool with the change you saved in a jar on the kitchen counter. ...

It's just money.

Make it about the money. Don't make it about the relationship or his attitudes or his cheapness. ...

He pays his bills, right? He gets invoices and pays them? He probably scrutinizes them but he pays them because he recognizes them as legitimate. Maybe he does not recognize the bringing of wine to a party as legitimate. So you could explain to him that wine is the money of friendship. It is money in the economy of the friend. In the economy of the friend, we pretend that money is not the issue, because we like to have this primitive fantasy that friendship exists when we are cavemen, before money was invented, because we are still tribal in our friendships and no other countries exist; there is no France or England, there is only our cave or our tent into which we invite you if you bring a Snickers bar or a bottle of burgundy. ... [a lot of stuff about friends vs. credit companies, social class, and capitalism] ...

We say, "It isn't about the money." But it is about the money. To say it isn't about the money is to demean money. Like money isn't important. But money is very important. Money is just slippery and hard to deal with, but it is the issue. We say, it's not about the money, it's about fairness. It's about not being cheap. Or it's about attitudes. But attitudes toward what? It's his attitude toward money.

He loves you. It's not his attitude toward you. He doesn't think this is about you. He thinks this is about money. And it is. It's about your attitude toward money and his attitude toward money. ...

So the one approach is to invoice him. And the other approach is to get into what money means.

Ashley: Cary Tennis says "money" a lot.

Lulu: Suggested theme song for today's Cary Tennis: "Mony Mony" by Billy Idol. Or "Money" by Pink Floyd, but that might be a little too on the money.

Ashley: Stop saying money, it's creeping me out.

Lulu: So but I mean I think the invoice idea is good, actually. Even if it's not that formal, just holding him to the same exacting standards that he holds her to. Personally I prefer a relationship where you just lend each other money whenever, and don't keep track, but clearly he prefers the "keep perfect records" strategy, and if he can dish it out, he's got to be able to take it.

Ashley: I was going to recommend the opposite approach: a joint account. Since they make about the same salary, they can figure out how much their time is worth, right? If they figure out how much time they're wasting on this shit, they can figure out how much money they'd save by not doing it. Just be like, "how much money are you comfortable giving up for mutual convenience"? They could start small, at like $5 each.

Lulu: I agree. When you factor in the time it costs you to save this or that tiny amount, it often makes more sense just to pay more for convenience. But people who are super weird about money tend not to buy the time argument.

Ashley: Feh.

Lulu: But a joint account for shared purchases might be a good idea anyway, since from her description, it seems like he'd be more likely to pay himself back for money borrowed from the joint than he would be to pay her back for money he borrowed. It could cause more arguments, though. "Why did you buy that bottle of wine out of the joint account? They're your friends."

Ashley: I'm saying to use it as giving up the money. So even if they DO spend it on themselves, that is an amount of money you've decided not to care about.

Lulu: I think that's what Cary Tennis is getting at with the change jar, too--just get him to let go of some money, as an exercise. But it just makes me tired thinking about dating this guy--even if this is only his weird money hangup and not a general trend of selfishness. Look, I wouldn't keep track of who paid for what dinner and how much they relatively cost, but if I was dating someone who squared up each account nicely, sometimes asking for more money and sometimes giving me more money, that would be fine. It's the fact that he doesn't pay her back that bugs me. He's only keeping track when it benefits him! He's forcing her to keep records too just so she doesn't get cheated. Sure, he's the one who cares about being cheated, but it's not so much about the money, for me, as the unfairness. You shouldn't have to be on guard against your partner cheating you, no matter how irrelevant the consequences.

Ashley: It makes me sleepy, too. I'd just pay for everything, and then break up with him very shortly thereafter. But she's been with him for 6 years!

Lulu: I can see hanging in to see if you eventually make your way into his circle of "people I'm looking out for, money-wise" but after 6 years, it seems unlikely he's capable of including anyone but himself on that list. I mean, intellectually, I think it doesn't necessarily reflect on his other attitudes,
because, people are weird about money sometimes. But it would be hard for me to have him on his guard against being cheated by me for 6 years without feelling like he doesn't trust me.

Ashley: I just can't imagine dating someone with that much focus on minutia. It doesn't really matter what it's about. If he were keeping track of something else that meaningless, I'd also be annoyed. Like, I dunno, maybe who's turn it is to do a particular chore?

Lulu: I would always either be like "who cares!" or I'd be looking for a system to keep track for us, so we don't have to waste time thinking about it. Which i guess is the beauty of the joint account--just both put in some agreed-upon amount and use it for joint purchases and forget about who paid for what when--but you also need a dose of "who cares" to make that work, in case of any disputes.

Ashley: Yeah. I would have dumped that guy on the first sign.

Lulu: I guess we are bad people to be advising on this.

That should probably be the conclusion of all our columns. Um... Send us your major life queries, folks!!!!!!!!! MY IMPORTANT DRAMA AT GMAIL DOT COM YO

Two semesters from retirement

Today's Dear Abby finds another question from a parent worried about their irresponsible child, college, and how much to pay for.

DEAR ABBY: Our son, "Jason," has decided to leave college with only two semesters left. He says he's doing so in order to pursue his love of river guiding and outdoor programs.

While he was in school, his father and I paid for his cell phone, health and car insurance, and his rent because we wanted his focus to be on his studies. We also paid his tuition. Jason has a part-time job. Now that he has decided to leave school, our view is that he should find another job and assume these expenses.

My husband and I disagree about who should pay for any future education that Jason wants. If he goes back to school, his tuition will be paid for, says Dad. I think we would be enabling him if he thought we were always standing by to foot the bill.

We are heartsick that Jason has made this decision, but his mind is made up. Any advice from you would be appreciated.

- Unhappy Mom in Mississippi

We don't really disagree with Abby's advice, but as usual, we find t a little short and unsatisfying. In its entirety:

I agree that Jason should shoulder the responsibility for his living expenses. However, do not make any hard and fast decisions about his tuition while you are still angry at him. This situation will surely play out. If and when Jason decides to complete his education, that would be the time to discuss the matter of tuition.

Lulu: It's like with our Frivolous Wastes of Money column: the parents are considering withholding something they want the son to have as a punishment for the son. They're only hurting themselves.

Ashley: It's two lousy semesters. He should just finish the degree. At the same time, it's two lousy semesters' worth of money; a lot, but not compared to what they've already spent.

Lulu: I suppose they think he will make the calculation and realize he should stay in school for free (to him) rather than put it off and have to pay for it himself later. But if he were making decisions according to the calculations, he would just wait the eight measly months to become a forest ranger.

This is why I do think that kids should help pay for college, if their parents do (ie. if they don't get a full scholarship): so they have some personal investment in the cost-benefit analysis. But in this case, I don't think it's just that he's being selfish with the money because he thinks it's infinite. He doesn't seem to want the degree at all. Even if it were his own money, he wouldn't necessarily consider it worth his time and attention.

Ashley: I mean, at some level, if you know you won't use it, it's best not to proceed: sunk costs and all that. But does that really apply to a college degree? It seems like it'll never hurt to have one. A lot of jobs require a bachelor's in anything.

Lulu: Because of classism!

Ashley: For him specifically, it seems like he could use, for example, a BS in Environmental Science.

Lulu: I guess he just feels he doesn't need it. He can do what he wants without it.

Ashley: I can respect the choice not to go to college in the first place, but what I don't respect is if you go, almost complete it, and then drop out. A big waste of time and money, just because you can't make up your mind or you let people push you around.

Lulu: A lot of teenagers don't know their own mind. Maybe he didn't know he would hate college until he got there. It would be nice if you could make that decision snappily, for the sake of your parents' bank accounts, but I can see how it would go wrong. Kid says he wants to drop out to save the parents money, parents say, no, no, don't worry about the money, I just want you to get the degree. Repeat. I respect this kid more because he has a plan - half-baked as his parents may find it.

Ashley: Sure. But what he's doing is not time sensitive. He can't do river guiding next year?

Lulu: I kind of find his impatience charming because it shows he's enthusiastic about this.

Ashley: I don't find it endearing when people drop stuff that will help for sure in order to do something they're "passionate about". I find it boring and immature.

Lulu: Well, there's levels. You can't do it all the time.

Ashley: There are definite points at which it makes sense to change stuff, and if you want to change stuff between those points, there better be a damn good reason, especially when the next point is very close.

Lulu: You don't understand! He's suffocating in this ivory tower of academia!

Ashley: Yeah, and soon he will be suffocating under the pressure of rent payments. How's he going to get out of that one?

Lulu: We'll see. I think he'll be okay. Fly free, little river guide. Either way, his motives are irrelvant. He's made his choice. The parents are asking what they should do.

Ashley: It seems that the husband wants to extend the offer of free tuition if he ever decides to go back and the wife doesn't. So split the difference? Half-tuition? I think it's a moot point because I don't think he'll go back.

Lulu: That's what Abby was saying, too. Address that if and when he decides to go back.

Ashley: Yeah, but a lot of people don't want a possible fight hanging over their heads. She wanted to have it settled now. You can always review your decision.

Lulu: So, sure. Half tuition. But it's probably moot.

Ashley: Moot!

Frivolous wastes of money

In today's Ask Amy, a parents frets about her daughter's use of money.

Dear Amy: My daughter recently graduated from college.

My husband and I paid for all of her expenses, though she held a part-time job.

We opened a bank account for her when she was a child. We added about $10,000 to this account when she started college.

Our daughter has spent all of her savings and paychecks throughout these four years on clothes and going out with friends.

I have berated her countless times on her spending habits.

Right before she graduated, she said she'd found an apartment to live in with her two friends.

I told her NOT to sign a lease because she couldn't afford it.

She moved home and now has a full-time job ($14 an hour) and another side job while she looks for work in her field.

Her friends took the apartment and she goes there on weekends.

She assured me that she was not on the lease.

Of course, now I find out that she is. I am livid.

I told her she needs to either get someone to sublet the apartment or go ahead and move into it, but she will not be able to keep our car or have us pay any of her expenses.

She found a bus that can get her close to work but I am worried for her safety when she gets out of work at 10 p.m. and is waiting for a bus in a dangerous neighborhood.

She wants to buy our car, but with her track record I know she will not keep up with payments.

I think she needs to see what real life is all about but if something happened to her as she waited for a bus I would never forgive myself.

Any suggestions?

Amy says the girl needs to get out on her own--which we agree with--but she seems to concur with the parents' assessment that she's by nature a wasteful drain on society:

Her spending habits will get her into trouble unless she makes the connection necessary to be a good steward to her own finances. Until then I suggest it's time she learned to eat ramen noodles over the sink.

We don't agree. It looks to us like she wants to get out on her own (she works two jobs! she's willing to take a bus! she signed a lease! which apparently she can afford after all?) but she's just a doormat (why all the secrecy with the lease?) But her parents are oddly standing in the way of the steps they claim to want her to take.

Ashley: Those parents are very strange.

Lulu: Right?

Ashley: They want the daughter to be responsible for herself but also they're very controlling. Can't wait for a bus at 10pm?

Lulu: Yeah, they want it both ways.

Ashley: And Amy's response: take a cab?

Lulu: If you need to you take a cab every time you get out of work, you might as well not have a job.

Ashley: I'm not sure these people know how much things cost.

Lulu: It looks like the girl is not unwilling to meet the terms of living on her own, but the mom doesn't find her solutions acceptable. It's like, they sheltered her too long and now they're mad at her because she's unprepared for the world. But the way to help someone be independent isn't to micromanage them so they don't make any unsafe or expensive choices.

Ashley: According to the parents, some things are Worth The Money and some things are Frivolous Wastes. So not taking a bus at 10pm is Worth The Money, but eating out with friends is a Frivolous Waste. But for me, it's opposite. It's all the person's preference.

Lulu: As a parent, if you think things are worth it that the child doesn't, you can provide them as a present, but you can't demand that the child spend her own money on the things you think are worth it.

Ashley: It kind of seemed like she offered to buy out their car to make them feel better, and now they're all, "she won't pay us!"

Lulu: I bet if she found a cheaper car they would be like, "she bought this UNSAFE CAR."

Ashley: The thing is, she can't immediately get an awesome job out of college. For a while, she'll have to live in an unsafe neighborhood or whatever.

Lulu: Yeah, I think that is what Amy is getting at in her ramen answer, although she frames it as if the girl is the one who'll object to that. Parents who are well off and raise their child to be well off are sometimes appalled by the lower standard of living they have when they are on their own, but that's what it's LIKE when you're starting out.

But ramen is very unhealthy. She should at least get pasta. Come on.