What it takes to get along

Yesterday's Cary Tennis dealt with money in relationships.

I have been dating a wonderful man for six years... I could see myself marrying this man.

Here is the rub: He is cheap. Not thrifty, CHEAP. Since we started dating, we have split everything (meals, gas, etc.) but we both make about the same salary and I was raised to pay for myself so this never bothered me. What bothers me is when he picks up a stamp for me while he is at the post office and then asks me for the 44 cents. What bothers me is that when he comes to my place for dinner (about five nights a week), he doesn't bring anything. If we go to a party thrown by his friends, he expects me to help pay for the wine we bring, but if we go to a party thrown by my friends, I'm on my own to pay for it. If I run out of money and need to borrow a dollar, he is damn sure to get that dollar back from me. He won't go certain places if he has to drive (even a few blocks) because he doesn't want to pay for gas. It's crazy. This is unlikely an actual money issue as he came from a well-to-do family, has enough money to live comfortably and frequently buys himself very nice things. ...

He will go out of his way for me: He is very generous to me with his affection and time. But, when it comes to cash, he is just absurdly cheap, and his strange deal with money makes me think that there is some deeply selfish side to him that is being reflected in this cheapness. ...

Am I making a mountain out of a molehill or is his cheapness indicative of some bigger problem? If so, how do I possibly bring this up to him without sounding like a gold digger?

This is one of Cary's longwinded days, so I'm providing only excerpts of his response.

You could give him an invoice.

He might dispute some charges. For instance, on the

bottle of wine for the party: 1/2

he might dispute his share because he didn't drink any of it. You would have to say: Note the

category: gifts.

On the postage stamp thing, if you give him a postage stamp, bill him

$USD 0.44 first class postage, 1

Give him a monthly invoice of all the charges for which he is in arrears. See if he will write you a check for those things.

If you're going to marry each other you're going to be using money together all the time. You're going to be eating together and buying groceries and cars.

You are going to have to get to know what money means to each of you...

Here is something you can do together about money that may be fun:

Put a jar on the kitchen counter.

When he comes over for dinner, ask him to put any spare change he has into the jar. Say it is a jar you are saving money into so that you and he can go do something cool. Then when the jar is full you and he can take the money out and go into the world together and do something cool with the change you saved in a jar on the kitchen counter. ...

It's just money.

Make it about the money. Don't make it about the relationship or his attitudes or his cheapness. ...

He pays his bills, right? He gets invoices and pays them? He probably scrutinizes them but he pays them because he recognizes them as legitimate. Maybe he does not recognize the bringing of wine to a party as legitimate. So you could explain to him that wine is the money of friendship. It is money in the economy of the friend. In the economy of the friend, we pretend that money is not the issue, because we like to have this primitive fantasy that friendship exists when we are cavemen, before money was invented, because we are still tribal in our friendships and no other countries exist; there is no France or England, there is only our cave or our tent into which we invite you if you bring a Snickers bar or a bottle of burgundy. ... [a lot of stuff about friends vs. credit companies, social class, and capitalism] ...

We say, "It isn't about the money." But it is about the money. To say it isn't about the money is to demean money. Like money isn't important. But money is very important. Money is just slippery and hard to deal with, but it is the issue. We say, it's not about the money, it's about fairness. It's about not being cheap. Or it's about attitudes. But attitudes toward what? It's his attitude toward money.

He loves you. It's not his attitude toward you. He doesn't think this is about you. He thinks this is about money. And it is. It's about your attitude toward money and his attitude toward money. ...

So the one approach is to invoice him. And the other approach is to get into what money means.

Ashley: Cary Tennis says "money" a lot.

Lulu: Suggested theme song for today's Cary Tennis: "Mony Mony" by Billy Idol. Or "Money" by Pink Floyd, but that might be a little too on the money.

Ashley: Stop saying money, it's creeping me out.

Lulu: So but I mean I think the invoice idea is good, actually. Even if it's not that formal, just holding him to the same exacting standards that he holds her to. Personally I prefer a relationship where you just lend each other money whenever, and don't keep track, but clearly he prefers the "keep perfect records" strategy, and if he can dish it out, he's got to be able to take it.

Ashley: I was going to recommend the opposite approach: a joint account. Since they make about the same salary, they can figure out how much their time is worth, right? If they figure out how much time they're wasting on this shit, they can figure out how much money they'd save by not doing it. Just be like, "how much money are you comfortable giving up for mutual convenience"? They could start small, at like $5 each.

Lulu: I agree. When you factor in the time it costs you to save this or that tiny amount, it often makes more sense just to pay more for convenience. But people who are super weird about money tend not to buy the time argument.

Ashley: Feh.

Lulu: But a joint account for shared purchases might be a good idea anyway, since from her description, it seems like he'd be more likely to pay himself back for money borrowed from the joint than he would be to pay her back for money he borrowed. It could cause more arguments, though. "Why did you buy that bottle of wine out of the joint account? They're your friends."

Ashley: I'm saying to use it as giving up the money. So even if they DO spend it on themselves, that is an amount of money you've decided not to care about.

Lulu: I think that's what Cary Tennis is getting at with the change jar, too--just get him to let go of some money, as an exercise. But it just makes me tired thinking about dating this guy--even if this is only his weird money hangup and not a general trend of selfishness. Look, I wouldn't keep track of who paid for what dinner and how much they relatively cost, but if I was dating someone who squared up each account nicely, sometimes asking for more money and sometimes giving me more money, that would be fine. It's the fact that he doesn't pay her back that bugs me. He's only keeping track when it benefits him! He's forcing her to keep records too just so she doesn't get cheated. Sure, he's the one who cares about being cheated, but it's not so much about the money, for me, as the unfairness. You shouldn't have to be on guard against your partner cheating you, no matter how irrelevant the consequences.

Ashley: It makes me sleepy, too. I'd just pay for everything, and then break up with him very shortly thereafter. But she's been with him for 6 years!

Lulu: I can see hanging in to see if you eventually make your way into his circle of "people I'm looking out for, money-wise" but after 6 years, it seems unlikely he's capable of including anyone but himself on that list. I mean, intellectually, I think it doesn't necessarily reflect on his other attitudes,
because, people are weird about money sometimes. But it would be hard for me to have him on his guard against being cheated by me for 6 years without feelling like he doesn't trust me.

Ashley: I just can't imagine dating someone with that much focus on minutia. It doesn't really matter what it's about. If he were keeping track of something else that meaningless, I'd also be annoyed. Like, I dunno, maybe who's turn it is to do a particular chore?

Lulu: I would always either be like "who cares!" or I'd be looking for a system to keep track for us, so we don't have to waste time thinking about it. Which i guess is the beauty of the joint account--just both put in some agreed-upon amount and use it for joint purchases and forget about who paid for what when--but you also need a dose of "who cares" to make that work, in case of any disputes.

Ashley: Yeah. I would have dumped that guy on the first sign.

Lulu: I guess we are bad people to be advising on this.

That should probably be the conclusion of all our columns. Um... Send us your major life queries, folks!!!!!!!!! MY IMPORTANT DRAMA AT GMAIL DOT COM YO

The Endless Springcycle

Yesterday, Darnell and I discussed a Dear Abby letter about designated drivers, but because there were two letters about drunkenness in the column, I decided to take advantage of his vast, vast experience (vast) and ask about the other.

Lulu: So, about the other letter.

Darnell: Yeah. This is very Jerry Springer.

Lulu: I feel like Dear Abby's response is a little terse. Technically, she only asks for validation, but I feel like she is secretly asking for a course of action.

Darnell: The problem being there isn't a great one that I know of. How to get over a fucked up situation in ten days?

Lulu: Well, she's asking about trust...

Darnell: Start banging Jill?

Lulu: ...

Darnell: ...

Lulu: Oh, wait. We are talking about different letters!

So it looks like we will be doing a hat trick of the letters in Saturday's Dear Abby.

Letter the third: drunken shenanigans cont'd

DEAR ABBY: I became fast friends with one of my husband's co-workers after meeting her at a happy hour. We had fun going out, usually to dance clubs.

One night when my husband tagged along, I overheard her tell him, "If you weren't married, I could be with you." When I confronted her about it the next night, she apologized, saying she had been feeling no pain and can't believe she said it. My husband chalks it up to her being stupid drunk, but I can't let it go.

Now when I see her at work functions, I am cordial and she acts like nothing ever happened. We could have been great friends if she hadn't said what she did, but each time I think I can bury the hatchet, I get angry and upset all over again.

Should I just get over it? Or am I justified in feeling I can't be friends with someone I can't trust?

- Distrustful in Illinois

DEAR DISTRUSTFUL: You're justified. And I'm saying it cold sober.

Darnell: Wow, that is a terse response from Abby.

Lulu: Right?

Darnell: "Feeling no pain" is a great "I'm hammered" phrase.

Lulu: I did not know it and it made that letter very confusing.

Darnell: Her husband sounds like me.

Lulu: You're always getting hit on by your wife's friends?

Darnell: Naturally. But the "she's a stupid drunk" response is a good one.

Lulu: "She's stupid drunk," I believe. No "a". It is less mean that way.

Darnell: Right, right. Being drunk and being a drunk are two entirely different things.

Lulu: Well, being stupid and being stupid drunk are different things. Ot would be great if the husband were just like, "She is a stupid drunk and I hate her." I think that would have helped actually. The wife would be less insecure.

Darnell: A lot of these letters have a theme of, "We could have been great friends/lovers/whatevs," if it weren't for their personality. Stop idealizing people you just met because they are initially fun!

Lulu: Yeah, and because you don't know them. You don't just assume everything you don't know is amazing!

Darnell: That second letter has the same problem.

Lulu: Oh, fine, we'll discuss your precious second letter.

Letter the second: Banging Jill

DEAR ABBY: "Tracey" is beautiful, caring and fun to spend time with. I fell hard for her and knew I could love her forever. When she broke up with me to "be on her own," I was very hurt.

My best friend, "Henry," says he started sleeping with Tracey right after our breakup. I was his best man when he married "Jill." Now Henry has left Jill for Tracey, and I am left with a sick stomach. How do I heal my wounds while supporting Jill, which keeps them painfully open?

- Heartsick in Ohio

DEAR HEARTSICK: One way would be to remind yourself that as "caring and fun" as Tracey was to be with, she had no reluctance about dating a married man. Another would be to level with Jill, explain that spending time with her is a painful reminder of the way you were dumped, and take a break from it until you have healed.

Darnell: In retrospect I bet the first line of: "Tracey is beautiful, caring and fun to spend time with" means "Tracey is hot."

Lulu: No question. Fun to spend time with means she was fun to have sex with. Caring means she has nice eyes. Actually, it's probably not a bad move if every time an LW lists a litany of good qualities, we read it as "hot... really hot... really very hot." Unless they say "sweet," and then we know it means "plain."

Darnell: People call me sweet!

Lulu: Oh no!

Darnell: That's a lie. Nobody calls me sweet, because I am a jackass.

Lulu: I do think girls use it often to mean "I like this person, but I am not that interested in actually dating them." This has become an enormous digression.

Darnell: I use it to describe candy.

Lulu: Well, that's exactly what I mean. I like candy... but I would not date candy.

Darnell: I would totally date candy. And then there would be a headline in the paper. MAN EATS GIRLFRIEND.

Lulu: GIRLFRIEND MELTS IN MOUTH, NOT IN HAND.

Darnell: I honestly think that "bang Jill" is the best course of action. It completes the Springcycle and then everyone can get over it!

Lulu: Wait, he says he is "supporting Jill." Doesn't that already mean he is banging Jill?

Darnell: I don't know, he sounds like kind of a pussy. He could actually be providing emotional support.

Lulu: In that case, he should totally make a move on Jill, and if she rebuffs him, then she will probably not want to spend time with him anymore,
and his problem is solved!

Darnell: We are idea people.

Lulu: Ha ha. Except that doesn't actually solve anything.

Darnell: Look, the situation is in a place that cannot be fixed, so just complete it and move on.

Lulu: I guess maybe they wouldn't feel so bad about getting left. Or they wouldn't feel like the other people scored points, because they got points too? You know... Sex points.

Darnell: Jill gets revenge on "Henry" for cheating. LW gets vengeance on "Henry" because he broke bro-code by sexing up "Tracey" when he knew the LW was into that.

Lulu: Yeah, it also seems like Henry was a little dumb about it - he told the LW he was sleeping with Tracey right after the break up! He should have been like, "Well, you know... these things happen... she was on her own for.. cough months..."

Darnell: He was already lying, he just didn't do it hard enough. Because they were having sex before the breakup. That is just scientific fact.

Lulu: Oh my god. You're right. So what, the only solution is for the LW to bang Jill better than Henry is banging Tracey, yeah?

Darnell: He does have to one-up on at least one level. If he can't pull off better, and I somehow doubt that he can, more often. In the butt. Just pick a goal that you can achieve. I guarantuee he can find soemthing that will make Jill say, "Henry never did ." Jill probably has plenty of ideas; the injured party is always eager to talk about inadequacies.

Lulu: There is only one problem with this advice that I can think of. What if Jill is ugly?

Darnell: We're all God's children in the dark, Lulu.

That's right, folks: it took one column left without the calming supervision of Ashley to advocate revenge-driven sexual one-upmanship. Hello and goodbye, everybody!

Don't tell your parents, Part II

An Annie's Mailbox column from 8/15/10 advises a teenage girl who wrote in about her depressed boyfriend:

Dear Annie: My boyfriend, "Tyler," and I are both 15. He suffers from depression, and lately it has gotten much worse. He told me he takes many doses of Benadryl each night to help him sleep. He promised he would stop once school was finished, but I can't be sure he did.

A few nights ago, Tyler admitted he had been stealing alcohol from his parents' liquor cabinet. He also mentioned that he wanted to try OxyContin and weed to reduce his misery. When I pleaded with him not to do these things, he said he could do whatever he wished and I could not control him.

I know he could feel better in other ways (seeing a therapist, using antidepressants, etc.), and I have mentioned this to him, but he won't listen. His parents are aware that he is depressed, but don't know about the alcohol and drug abuse. Should I say something? I am sure they would lock the liquor cabinet and make him see a doctor, but I know Tyler will never speak to me again if I tell them.

I feel overwhelmed and burdened with this knowledge. I want to help Tyler get better in a healthy way, but I don't feel comfortable going to my parents about this, and it's stressing me out. Please help. — Scared

The response is as expected: tell your parents!

Dear Scared: You are smart to see that Tyler is in trouble. His inability to sleep, plus the liquor abuse and hints about OxyContin and pot indicate that Tyler is depressed, stressed and desperate for someone to notice. It would be best if you would talk to your own parents, but if you cannot, then please say something to Tyler's parents about his increased level of depression. If they do nothing, talk to your school counselor in more detail when school resumes. Tyler may become angry, but you will never forgive yourself if you don't step in.

Lulu: It would be best to talk to her parents? What can they do?

Ashley: I can just see being the parent:
Girl: "Mom, my boyfriend is depressed"
Me: "erm. okay?"

Lulu: I guess "tell your parents" is cookie cutter kid advice that they universally apply even when it doesn't make sense. I'd give her the same advice for everyone who wants their partner to change: She can't make him do what she wants, so she either has to deal with what he's doing or break up with him.

Ashley: Yeah. The thing about advice to teenagers re:relationships is, either you give them the same advice as adults or, they're not mature enough to be in a relationship, in which case you tell them to break up.

Lulu: It is relevant that they're teenagers if only because he would probably have to tell his parents if he wanted to get, for example, a counselor using their insurance, but he still needs to want this. You wouldn't tell an adult to tell her boyfriend's parents about his depression even if he was, for whatever reason, on their insurance, because he's the one you need to convince.

Ashley: She should tell him to talk to the counselor at school or his parents or what have you, and if he doesn't make any effort, she's out.

Lulu: Right, it seems like she has done that.

Ashley: She didn't give the ultimatum. I.e. it's not about him, it's about her. She'll give him every chance to deal with his depression, but he has to be the one to do it.

Lulu: It's always unclear how much help you should give someone who is depressed, since it is an illness that effectively prevents the person from doing the things they need to do to fix it. But curing a depressed person is too much to ask of yourself as a girlfriend. She may sort of like the role of Concerned Handwringing Girlfriend to Troubled Boy, but it is on her to change the dynamic if she doesn't want it to continue forever.

Ashley: Yeah--when he doesn't address his depression, then she should actually break up with him (it should not be an empty threat).

Lulu: So that's the same advice we would give to an adult.

Ashley: It is. Telling her parents won't do anything besides show them that she's not mature enough to deal with relationship problems and therefore shouldn't be in a relationship. I'm actually surprised they didn't even suggest breaking up to this girl.

Lulu: Right, the advice to an adult would have been to break up, I think, but the advice for a teenager is, stay in the relationship, but involve lots of adults.

Ashley: How many adults could you possibly want involved in your romantic relationships? Poly people notwithstanding...

Choosing the college that's right for you

Today Ashley and I address a topic of unnecessarily overarching importance to many young advice seekers: choosing the Right College For You.

From Annie's Mailbox, May 22, 2007:

Dear Annie: I am 17 years old and going to be a senior in high school in the fall. Pretty soon, I will be making some very important decisions about my future and choosing where I want to go to college. I get nearly straight A's and could probably get into most of the places I plan to apply to. Here's my dilemma:

My boyfriend of almost two years is already in college and wants me to go to the same school he does. His college is an OK school, but nothing spectacular, and I feel I could do a lot better. I looked at several of the colleges near his, but frankly, none of them appeals to me.

I want to be with my boyfriend because we've already been apart for the past year and I miss him. What should I do?

Annie, of course, tells the writer to forget the boyfriend and pursue the very highest level of education possible. And while we understand Annie's point--the relationship is not likely to make it past Thanksgiving of freshman year whether she goes to his school or not, and What College You Went To is forever--we question the givens (i.e., that What College You Went To really matters.)

Ashley: Look, I went to a school to be with my boyfriend, and even though we broke up in the first year, it was still the best choice for me.

Lulu: You met me!

Ashley: Aside from that. Sometimes the worse school is the better choice.

Lulu: You get out of classes what you put into them--whether it's Harvard or Community College of Bumblefuck. You can have a great or a terrible academic experience anywhere.

Ashley: Right, and the instructors at smaller/less prestigious schools are often more engaged than the hardcore academic professors.

Lulu: On the other hand, it seems kind of like she's made up her mind that, for whatever reason, she doesn't want to go to her boyfriend's school, and she just wants validation. After all, she wrote into Annie.

Ashley: Her reasons for not wanting to may go away when it's a difference between "free college education" and "$100k in debt." Look, if you want to study engineering, and you get into MIT, Stanford, or CalTech, you go, no questions asked. But other than that, it just doesn't matter.

Lulu: Right, or RISD for art.

Ashley: Suuure. Art.

Lulu: I think leaving it up to money is honestly the best strategy, because it's emotionally neutral. It's hard to regret saving thousands of dollars. The school doesn't have to be so wonderful that it beats the joy of being near the boyfriend, and the boyfriend doesn't have to be so wonderful he's worth turning down Brown--wherever she ends up, the relationship or the reputation of the school are bonuses, not Reasons She Changed Her Life. She should apply everywhere, and go to whichever school ends up being cheapest.

Ashley: Or whichever one accepts her. "Almost" straight As isn't that great.

Lulu: I hate you.

Parents can also complicate the college choice, and as this letter writer found out in a Dear Abby column of December 13, 2008, advice columnist side with the parents.

DEAR ABBY: I am a senior in high school, and my friends and I are all looking at different colleges. I have one friend whose parents are all about deciding what is right for him and won't let him make the final decision as to where he should go. They believe that choosing a college is all about connections and what careers make the most money.

Shouldn't my friend be able to pursue his dream of becoming a writer and attend the college of his choice? Should his parents be able to make the decision about where he should go?

Lulu: The question is, do the parents have the right to choose the school, if they are the ones paying for it?

Ashley: Yes. Yes they do.

Lulu: Okay, yeah, I mean, it's their money, but don't they have some kind of a responsibility to let the kid start to make his own, adult choices?

Ashley: Not if his adult choice means I'm paying $100k for art history.

Lulu: It's going to be a waste of money anyway if they pack a kid off to LSE if he hates math, you know? You can refuse to pay for Sarah Lawrence, but you can't make him be motivated to become a manager.

Ashley: I'd offer less money for certain majors.

Lulu: So complicated. You'd have to come up with a whole system.

Ashley: I'd do it. $100k for engineering, $20k for English.

Lulu: Yeah, I mean, that's rational. I'm not saying I'm against it. I just think he needs to go to hell his own way.

Ashley: That's your answer to everything, isn't it?

Lulu: It is my generalized parenting philosophy, yes. Didn't you feel bad for those kids in college who were always arguing with their parents about why they didn't want to study finance? Half the time their parents were misinformed about what majors would be useful by the time they graduated, anyway. They can't be micromanaging his adult life.

Ashley: In that case, they shouldn't give him any money.

Lulu: Right, but lots of parents, if they can afford it, want their kids to go to college. I mean, I bet they'd also be pissed if he chose not to go to college because he wouldn't accept money on their terms. I see Abby's point, but if it were the parents writing in, I feel like I'd want to tell them not to intervene in what the kid studies.

Ashley: But they didn't write in.

Lulu: True. I still don't think the parents are right, but in the end, it really doesn't matter. You can't make people give you money when they don't want to.

Ashley: I don't think the parents are right, but I don't think expecting them to pay in the first place is a good idea. It's great if they do, but it's your life.

Lulu: Right. Whether or not the parents are right is ultimately academic. Even if they were denying you something you really believed was your right--food or going to high school or something--the best thing to do isn't to whine that it's unfair, but to say "fuck em" and find some way to do without them.

Ashley: You can really see paying $100k for your kid to get an English degree?

Lulu: Oh hell no. My kids are getting scholarships or going to state.

Ashley: $100k is what state costs, these days.

Lulu: My kids are getting scholarships or apprenticing with a plumber.

Ashley: Oh, a plumber? What on eaaaaaaarth is that?

College is great, but if what you want out of college (as most people do) is to learn some things and meet some people, then you can be happy anywhere there's students and teachers together in one place. Most high school students are unsure about what they want to ultimately study, so the only rational way to make the decision is based on (a) what you can best afford, taking into account scholarships and parents' willingness to pay, and (b) "irrational" reasons, such as the location of your boyfriend/friends/favorite city/favorite climate/where your whimsy takes you. So don't stress out: wherever you go, there you are.