Sex, oversharing, and videotape

Ashley: Prudence's chat has a question about a 16 year old making sex tapes.
Lulu: I saw that.

Q. Sister's Underage Sex Tapes: My little sister Rebecca recently confessed to me that she and her boyfriend Tyler have been filming themselves having sex. She says it excites her, because she's always felt pressure to be a good girl. Our parents aren't rigidly conservative by any means, but I know they'd object to Rebecca making sex tapes, not least of all because she's 16 and Tyler is 19. I'm not sure what to do, because I am worried my parents will lose their heads if I tell them. But, as I pointed out, Rebecca is underage, and it won't end well for Tyler if the authorities are alerted. As an older sister, what's my duty?

A: I hope most teenagers don't think that the alternative to being a good girl is being Paris Hilton. Your sister confessed to you for a reason, and it's good that you were apparently so flummoxed by what she said that you didn't offer much of a reaction one way or another. I think 16-year-olds should hang onto their virginity. I'm sure there's a study somewhere saying that keeping horniness in check correlates with higher trigonometry scores. But now that you know your sister is sexually active, the first thing you should do is to make sure she is using birth control and that's she's seen a gynecologist. Tell Rebecca you'd like to enlist your mother in this, and that you will not mention anything about her cinematic ventures. As for the tapes, I feel kind of sorry for today's youth, whose formal sex education consists of lectures on lethal illness and the potential for being prosecuted. But I agree that underage sex tapes are a bad idea, both legally and morally. Tell your sister you're really glad she came to you, you've been thinking about she told you, and it sounds as if she feels she's gotten in over her head. Explain it's not too late for her to change her mind about her extracurriculars. No, she can't get her virginity back, but she can decide that concentrating on getting through high school, instead of exploring her sexuality, is a better focus. Be calm and nonjudgmental. Then when the conversation progresses, you can suggest she get all copies of the tapes and destroy them.

Lulu: Prudence's advice to tell her to stop having sex at all seems... ineffective. Like a good way to get tuned out altogether.

Ashley: She clarifies later and focuses more on the sex tapes.

Q. Sex Tapes: Remind your little sister that it's incredibly easy for those tapes to wind up on the Internet, and all it would take is a few minutes for the boyfriend to post them on porn sites. If she doesn't think he'd do that, think again, because clearly plenty of boyfriends and ex-boyfriends have done it. They might consider looking online to make sure he hasn't already.

A: So true. That's why it's important for the girl to get possession of the tapes. But it would be best not to terrify the younger sister, just to explain this could happen given the technology.

Q. Re: Sister's Tape: I doubt the little sister's escapades are on actual tapes—it's probably digitally recorded on a cellphone or computer. The little sister needs to make sure her boyfriend deletes these videos. Even if he is a good guy who won't disseminate the videos online, his gear could be hacked or stolen!

A: Right, good point. She needs to make sure all existing evidence in all media is deleted. If the boyfriend won't cooperate, then a parental discussion about the consequences of disseminating sexual images of a minor might be highly instructive.

Lulu: Yeah, but by that time, I'm not listening. I'm sixteen, and I'm bragging about my sex tapes: what do you say??

Ashley: I don't think I care?

Lulu: Ha.

Ashley: I think what I'd actually say is to make sure her face isn't identifiable.

Lulu: That's good advice; while I'm sure it's a small percentage, you do hear stories about people getting in legal trouble when the subjects are under 18, even if they themselves took the video.

Ashley: Right. That's what I'm concerned with. She needs plausible deniability.

Lulu: Right, and that would solve the problem they bring up of what if someone posts the videos online, be it the boyfriend or the computer thief scenario.

Ashley: Right. The bf should be on board with this, because it gives him plausible deniability too.

Lulu: Right, he could get in more trouble.

Ashley: Although before the sister gets too self-righteous, she should check laws in her state. The three year age gap could be fine. It is in MA, for instance. Not sure about the stance on videotapes, but the actual sex is fine.

Lulu: Either way, some reasonable precautions with camera angles should make the videos much safer without diminishing the thrill of recording your awesome sex technique.

Ashley: Right! Or edit it in post.

Lulu: Or wear a mask. Like in Pulp Fiction. Or V for Vendetta. I haven't seen either of those films, but I assume the masks were for sex tape purposes.

How many thirteen year old girls does it take...

Lulu: So… A thirteen-year-old writes to Cherie because she shaved her pubes and now she has a doctor's appointment and her mom will find out:

Hey, Cherie!

I am age 13. I've never written to you before, and I never thought I would, but I don't know whom to ask. This question is a little personal. OK, here goes. Well, we get the Playboy channel at my house, and my little sister and I were watching it. It turned out every girl I saw on the program shaved down there and no one had any hair. My little sister, who is 7, even said they looked like her down there.

Well, recently, my friends and I had a sleep over, so we started watching adult stuff on my TV, and once again, I noticed none of the girls had hair down there! So then my friends and I decided it would be cool if we all shaved. So we all shaved down there, and at the time, it was funny and stuff, and we looked really cool afterwards. 

So here is my big problem. I am going to be a camp-counselor-in-training this summer, and my mom just told me I have to go have a physical before she can send in all the paperwork, and my physical is in two days! My mom will be in the doctor's office with me when I have my physical. She will see that I don't have any hair down there, and she will throw a hissy fit you will be able to hear in California. She is very, very overprotective. I tried to get the appointment changed so my hair could grow back in (Then I would just shave it again because even though it kind of itches, it looks so cool, and now I think hair down there is gross.), but my mom said no way, she had to wait three weeks to get this appointment. I'm not kidding, she is going to go ballistic. Help!

Lulu: And Cherie responds:

Hey, Hair Free!

Wanna hear something funny? 'K. When I was your age, the exact same thing happened to me, except it was about shaving my legs. Let us pause for a moment of silence as to not how far we have come but how low we have sunk.

Hair Free, you are not going to be turning hair-free cartwheels over my answer. And actually, neither is your mom. The first question that comes to mind is: With a 7- and 13-year-old in the house, why doesn't your mom block stuff like the Playboy channel from the TV? It's very easy to do, and yet for some unfathomable reason, most parents don't do it. Option No. 2 would be to only have TVs, like computers, in public places in your house until you are in high school.

That way your mom knows what you are watching and can discuss it with you.

This is exactly the kind of social pressure on young women that Dr. Mary Pipher talks about in her seminal book, "Reviving Ophelia." You didn't think "hair down there" was "gross" until you watched the Playboy channel. Trust me when I tell you that the Playboy channel is not representative of what is "cool" or is anything you should aspire to. They are women acting out roles, not being themselves. I bet you and your friends hate "fake" people, right? Right. It's like the most common teen dis. "She is so fake." Well, Playboy is not only so fake, but it's fake and putting on a fake show for guys. That is so much grosser than hair down there. 

To wax or not to wax it a question appropriate to someone much older than you. No way outta this one, girlfriend. Just tell your mom the truth. Fortunately, when it comes to something such as "hair down there," it grows back. And I'm guessing you and your mom would benefit from some one-on-one bonding time, anyway. I hope she reads this.

Lulu: Well, she's unrealistic if she thinks a kid is going to ask her mom to block the playboy channel.

Ashley: To say the least. And why is it taken as a given that her mom will be staring at her vagina during a physical? Is that normal??

Lulu: It seems to me that 13 is old enough to say,  "Mom, I don't want you in the room with me". Or, "I need my privacy".  My mom didn't come into the doctor's exam room with me when I was that age.

Ashley: Yeah, and actually, I can't remember having to remove my underwear  until they started doing pelvic exams.

Lulu: That's true. They don't usually do pelvics until you're like 16+, right? But if she's worried about it, I think she can ask her mom not to come in; I think a doctor/nurse would support that, since they like you to feel that you can be honest with them. In the bigger picture, I agree that if you look to the playboy channel for a model of how people can or should act, you'll get a skewed, unrealistic view. Everyone being shaved on playboy doesn't mean everyone is shaved in real life, but it's a personal choice... if you want to shave, why not?

Ashley: I don't particularly see a giant problem with it, either. Nor with the playboy channel in general - it's one of many influences.

Lulu: It seems to me that telling someone they shouldn't shave because it's tacky is just as bad as telling someone they should because it's sexy. It's all subjective, might as well do what makes you happy.

Ashley: Yeah, and I don't buy the "you didn't think it was gross until you watched the playboy channel" argument. I didn't think all sorts of things were gross as a child, but childhood innocence isn't gospel, or we'd all be picking our noses constantly.

Lulu: Kids who are looking for info about what sex is like need to know that porn is fiction, not documentary, but if you see something in fiction that inspires your fashion sense, that seems okay to me, like wanting Katniss's hairstyle or something.

Ashley: True! Of all the things she could have learned, that's probably the most harmless. If she thought she had to be super skinny or something, or wanted to change things that are impossible to change without major surgery, I’d be more with Cherie. If she were like, no one will love me unless I grow another foot and a half!

Lulu: Right.

Ashley: (in height, not in actual feet)

(3.5 feet would be awkward)

(i imagine)

 Lulu: Even if she gave as her reason for wanting to be shaved that guys would like it, that would be concerning. But she just says it looks cool (to her).

Ashley: And to her friends. Who all shaved as a group?

Lulu: Yeah, I don't get that. Did they go into the bathroom one at a time or did they just do it in a big room? With like bowls of soapy water?

Ashley: I’m not sure of the mechanics myself. Maybe I should watch the playboy channel?

Ski Don't

From the January 3 Ask Amy:

Dear Amy: I'm a 15-year-old girl, and I have an excellent boy friend (not a boyfriend, but a friend who is a boy).

He is 17 and wants to take me skiing one weekend.

We have been friends for a very long time, and I know him well.

However, I am nervous that when I propose this short trip to my parents, they will be afraid that I will be attacked or something if I go with him alone. (We would be alone on this trip.)

Even though my parents don't know him, I trust him completely.

Even if he tried something, I am a black belt in tae kwon do and would be able to defend myself.

I really want to go on this trip, but my parents most likely won't consent. How can I prove to them that I am responsible and that they can trust a person who I trust?

Amy, of course, tells her to suck it up and listen to her parents.

Most parents wouldn't let their teen go away on a weekend trip alone with another teen (no matter the gender).

You are kidding yourself if you think a black belt in anything will serve to protect you in a vulnerable situation. In my view, running away might be the smartest defense if you are in trouble. But that's beside the point. You will win your parents' trust by being trustworthy. That means introducing them to your friends — especially this friend — and permitting them to do their job, which is to make decisions based on their (not your) best judgment.

Did she really think Amy would help here? What's surprising, though, is that we don't either--much.

Lulu: Dan savage answered a question like this one time in the podcast. The girl wanted to go camping with her friend who is a boy but not a boyfriend. Dan basically told the girl that she'll never get her mom's consent so either she has to stay home and sulk, or sneak out and get the trip but probably get caught.

Ashley: There are paths in-between. It kind of seems like maybe she should ask her parents, or his, to take them both on a ski weekend.

Lulu: Yeah. She's righteously angry about the presumption that she'll automatically hook up with her male platonic friend, but I think she's making too much of that part (maybe her parents are, too.) It's not because he's a boy. Most parents would not let a 15 year old go on a ski weekend with a 17 year old and no adults.

Ashley: I don't imagine she'd be allowed to go even with a group of teenagers--not at 15. 16, maybe. I'm trying to think when my parents let me do stuff. I went on vacation with my boyfriend's family when I was 16.

Lulu: Yeah. I took a friend on vacation with my family when I was 14. The family is key there. I bet lots of parents would let a teenager go away for the weekend with her friend's whole family. Where I agree with Amy is that it would help if the parents knew the friend, and possibly his family (or at least had a phone conversation with them). It throws some suspicion on the matter if you're dead set on keeping the parents from meeting the friend.

Ashley: I think I could have convinced my parents to let me go on a ski weekend with a big group of friends at 16.

Lulu: Possibly mine too. It never occurred to me. My friends and I mostly just went on a day trips.

Ashley: I went to Italy when I was 16.

Lulu: That was a school trip, though, wasn't it? Presumably there were chaperones. Not that four or five adults can look after 20 kids at all times, but plausible deniability!

Ashley: Yeah, but I think that was the line for me. Once I left for a week, then I could basically do whatever with whomever. So maybe she should start small and develop her independence over time. Adults present for this one, then a group of teenagers, then her with the guy.

Or, whatever, just sneak out. Have a friend say she's sleeping over. Of course, if she gets injured or something, that would be awkward to explain.

Lulu: There are a lot of ways to get caught, especially now that the parents know what she's planning. And then she's kind of fucked. They won't let her out again until she's 30.

Ashley: She could start small with that, too. Develop those skills over time.

Lulu: So, assuming she doesn't do that, for this particular trip, we're basically telling her the same as Amy: go with the no. Age a bit.

Ashley: No, we're telling her to submit a modified request. Change the trip so there are adults involved. Then she still gets to ski. Assuming it's skiing she wants.

Lulu: It's sort of unclear why she's set on going with just this guy. Whom she has no romantic interest in and plans to beat up if he tries anything.

Ashley: He probably has a car.

Lulu: But why not take along other friends?

Ashley: Because he invited her? I agree that she should.

Lulu: Why isn't he taking along other people on this trip? Is he interested in her? Does he have no other friends? Maybe he only has a two-seater. Or a motorcycle.

Ashley: It's becoming clear why she doesn't want her parents to meet him.

My important ipod

Ashley and I were together over Thanksgiving, which is bad news for the column, since there is no reason to chat online when you are in person! (We are far too lazy to do another podcast.) However, we did talk about columns.

Saturday's Dear Abby concerned a girl whose mother lost her ipod.

DEAR ABBY: I'm 13, and about six months ago my mom confiscated my iPod because I misbehaved. When it was time to get my iPod back, my mom couldn't find it. We have been searching everywhere in the house for it - but it's gone.
My iPod is very important to me because almost every cent I earned went into buying the music and applications. The amount of money I spent is greater than the cost of the iPod itself. I asked my mother to buy me a new one to replace the one she lost, but she said it was my fault that it was taken away, and she could not keep track of where it was.

I think it is unfair that my mom lost something I spent so much on. Who is responsible for buying a new one?

Unsurprisingly, because we are often on the side of kids and because we are always on the side of logic, we believe that the mother should honor the terms of the original punishment, which was the temporary loss of her mp3 player. When the mother chose to take custody of it, she assumed the responsibility of remembering where it was. This was a situation where we weren't sure which way Abby was going to go, but she agreed:

Good parents model responsible behavior for their children; that's how children learn. You misbehaved and you were punished for it. If the agreement was that you would get your iPod back, and your mother lost it, then she should replace it - including the money you invested in loading it. She should be ashamed of herself for trying to weasel out of it.

I will paraphrase our further advice.

Lulu: We (and Abby) can agree with the LW until we are blue in the face, but it won't bring back the iPod, or necessarily convince her mother to get her a new one. She will probably have to buy a new one herself. But her music and content may be saved. I assume from her name-dropping that it's an official Apple iPod, in which case I believe her account is based on email address, and not necessarily tied to her device. She should log into the Apple website and see what she can salvage. If nothing else, she can look up the number for customer support and ask them if her content can be transferred to a new device. In the future, she should remember to back up her content.

Ashley: If she buys a new iPod now, what's to stop this from happening again?

Lulu: It will keep happening again.

Ashley: The mother may know she is wrong, but still be unable to back down from her original position. She may agree to a compromise: the daughter buys a new iPod now, but in the future, the iPod is off limits for punishment. The mother can take away something else.

Lulu: Generally, anything a child bought with her own money should be off limits for deprivation punishments. It just doesn't make sense; the child's own purchases are not the parent's property to take away!

Ashley: Well, the parent probably gave her the money in the first place, for example through an allowance. But if that's the case, stopping future allowances would be a better punishment than taking away past allowances (or the objects bought with them). If we consider an allowance as a reward for good behavior, then bad behavior should result in no more rewards, not the removal of past awards. She already earned the past rewards!

Lulu: If nothing else, for the cost of a new low-end iPod shuffle, she could get at least two no-name generic mp3 players. She'll have to redownload and/or rerip her music to start with, but if she stores it in several places (multiple mp3 players, a computer, maybe some $5 flash drives...), she's unlikely to lose it all ever again. And when her mom takes away her mp3 player, she can just dig out her backup(s).

So, good luck, iPod girl. Nobody can make your mom be reasonable, but at least you have some arguments and compromises you can try. And techie workarounds. Techie workarounds to parental punishments is kind of our speciality.

Keep 'em separated

Two letters today! And no thematic relationship between them.

First, a teenage girl in Dear Abby writes in about her boyfriend's odd request.

My boyfriend is pressuring me to take his camera cell phone with me into the girls' locker room and take pictures of the other girls with little or nothing on. He says it has always been a "fantasy" of his, and that if I really love him I'll help him fulfill his fantasy.

He promises to keep the pictures secret and says that what the other girls don't know won't hurt them. He offered to do the same for me and take pictures in the boys' locker room, but I'm not interested. I know it would be wrong to do it, and I wouldn't want someone secretly taking pictures of me.

He hinted that if I refuse he will look for another girl who will. I'm scared of losing him because I'm not much to look at, and he's the only boy who has ever shown any interest in me. I know you're not going to tell me to go ahead and do this, so I'm not sure why I'm writing, but I would appreciate any advice you can give me.

At least she acknowledges that she knows what Abby's answer will be. And we already know that we will agree, which is always disappointing to us. We like to be contrary.

Abby says:

I'm glad you wrote. If you do what this boy is pushing you to do, you could be thrown out of school. He will not be able to resist the urge to show the pictures to his friends - and possibly put them on the Internet. It would be a huge invasion of privacy and a breach of trust, and regardless of what he says, it will NOT bring you closer together.

If he truly cared about you, he would never ask you to do something that could get you into serious trouble. You could be accused of creating and distributing pornographic material, and there could be legal liability. The penalty you would pay isn't worth the "interest" he's showing in you. Run!

Lulu: So... I guess I disagree that it would be impossible for him to resist posting the photos on the internet. He's just going to masturbate to them. But it's still not okay to take pictures of girls in states of undress without their consent.

Ashley: Yeah.

Lulu: Also, how exactly is she planning to get away with photographing girls in the locker room? "Oh it's okay... I'm a girl."

Ashley: You pretend to be texting or something. It's hard to tell when a cell phone is pointed to take a picture.

Lulu: Mine makes a CLICK noise.

Ashley: You can turn that off.

[beat]

Ashley: Not that I know.

Lulu: Okay. Well, even if you don't think you'll get caught, it's pretty immoral and it seems like self-respect demands that you decline, EVEN IF you are ugly and your boyfriend is hot. Opposing viewpoint???

Ashley: Nope, I got nothing.

For the next letter, we advance to grownups in the workplace with today's Love Letters.

I had been dating a guy for about a year and we talked about moving in together when my lease was up this winter. He got scared back in August and decided that he needed to take a step back. Which is fine. We're both 27 and I'd rather him be sure than not sure. Granted, we've talked every day since his decision to take a step back, and we see each other on occasion. Although at times it doesn't seem romantic, I still have a little bit of a flame flickering for him. ...

Friday night he met me for a drink and a movie. The conversation over the drink was great. Things seemed to be going well and I was hopeful that we might be taking a step back in the right direction. I decided not to get my hopes up and talked myself into letting things progress naturally. Why push the subject if there's no subject to push yet, right? The drive home was also great and we talked about when we could see each other again. He was very active in communicating the rest of the weekend, which surprised me a little.

Fast forward to Monday morning. So he IMs me from "ABC Company," where he works, and we chat throughout the day. We made plans for the next week and mentioned an event he thought we would both like to attend in December.

Then, shortly after lunch, he told me he was interested in my company, "XYZ Company," which is ironically down the road from ABC. Needless to say, I felt like I was punched in the stomach. I know how miserable he is at ABC and that he would like it at XYZ. So I told him I would pass on his resume to the HR Director. He said he would put together his resume this week and send it over to me to pass along.

Here's what I'm thinking -- that this is the end of the chances of us getting back together. Do office romances really work in the long run? So what should I do? Do I actually pass along his very qualified resume or do I lie and say we're on a hiring freeze and continue on with our current situation? I know it sounds selfish if I lie but do I consider my feelings or his? What a mess.

Ashley: Here's the thing. You have to separate your work life from your relationship life. The question isn't how she would feel if he were working at XYZ, it's whether XYZ would benefit from having him work for it. There are people i would absolutely recommend to jobs that I would refuse to interact with socially. Is he a good worker? Then recommend him. I guess it's kind of a reverse way of thinking, but i think you're helping the company more than the guy. At least that's how I view recommendations.

Lulu: Out of curiosity, would you refuse to pass along the resume of someone who is kind of a slacker even if you do want to work with them?

Ashley: Absolutely.

[beat]

Lulu: Not that... that's... relevant.

Ashley: It's actually a simple question. Do you think the company would benefit from that person? Then recommend.

Lulu: Yeah, she's focusing on the wrong parts of the question. The office romance thing is moot. He wants to just be friends and/or coworkers. The relationship is over.

Ashley: Oh, definitely.

Okay, so the official answer: Meredith agrees that she needs to separate work like and love life, but she advocates a different approach.

I wouldn't worry about an office romance at the moment because I'm not quite sure you're in an out-of-office romance. Are you still together? How would you define your relationship, SBAR&MHP?

You have to be selfish. But you also have to be honest. Tell Mr. I'm-taking-a-step-back that you're a bit confused about the status of your relationship and that having him in an office down the hall won't help. He's more than welcome to apply for a job at ABC Company, but he shouldn't be asking you to facilitate. You're doing a lot for him -- stepping back, stepping forward, being a friend, being more than a friend. Let's be honest -- it hurts, right? Can he consider your feelings for a few minutes or more?

Ashley: I do agree that he's using her.

Lulu: For sure. Stepping back was breaking up, and it's awfully suspicious that he got friendly right before he asked for a favor. He does not want to get back together. He wants a job. He has trouble separating work and personal, too.

Ashley: But i don't necessarily think that's a deal breaker for recommending him. He's using her like an acquaintance. She's part of his network! I would also take an acquaintance to dinner and then ask for a favor.

Lulu: But it's unfair if he made it look like he was maybe getting back with her so she would view him more favorably. He probably knows she hopes to get him back.

Ashley: Does he? Maybe she just read into it. Either way, it doesn't affect her recommendation. He can be a good worker even if he's kind of an asshole.

Lulu: Though hopefully she won't have to work with him closely if she is still getting over the breakup.

Ashley: I guess she could always ask him for a referral to ABC in that case.

Lulu: Swapsies!

Cell Block J

Ashley: So people wrote in to Dear Abby re: father of girl with cell phone who told her to delete her texts if she doesn’t want him to see them. Unsurprisingly, they did not agree with us.

Lulu: Yeah, all those letters are like, you should totally check your kid’s cell phone. But it seems like they are advocating random checks, unannounced.

Ashley: Not the same as the original problem at all.

Lulu: I also don't believe that crap about how things are more dangerous now so you should value security over personal rights. All:

The world has changed with this technology, and the attention we pay as parents must change with it. I strongly urge the parents at my school to check their children's phones and computers regularly.

Ashley: It’s all so doom and gloom, and I don't like the security mentality at all, especially the police officer who wrote in. Yeah, he sees a lot of the bad stuff, but he's biased because he never knows the proportion of bad stuff to good stuff.

As a crime prevention officer, I regularly encourage parents to check a child's cell phone for bullying and sexting, most of which a child won't share with a parent. Especially if the child is the one who is using the phone to bully others, she certainly won't share her pictures with her parents. Most children are unaware that state laws have not changed, and children who send pornographic pictures of themselves to others can be charged with distributing child pornography and may have to register as a sexual predator for the rest of their lives.

Ashley: Oooh, nevermind, "crime prevention officer," not police officer. Seriously, it's a stupid law that you can be prosecuted for exploiting yourself; it's the law that needs to be changed, not the behavior.
 
Lulu: Right. Just because technology can be abused doesn't mean you shouldn't use it and I don't understand the mentality where you treat your kids like they're in maximum security prison until they're 18, because then they're just 18 year olds with the maturity of 12 year olds.

Ashley: Well, given the current imprisonment rates, maybe that's not the worst preparation...

Lulu: ha!

Ashley: It’s something like 11% of all men and 32% of black men are expected to spend time in jail, so... But it still doesn't explain policing the girls though. Girls don't go to prison.

Lulu: No, apparently they end up on child porn websites. I guess the idea of keeping their phones from them till they're 18 is that then they will go onto ADULT porn websites.

Ashley: Much better!

Lulu: I mean, the general lesson that you should think before you act is not limited to cell phone use and also impossible to teach.

Ashley: Thinking before I act has never been a strong suit, and I turned out juuuust fine.

Lulu: ...

Guys vs. grenades

The fifteen year old from a few days ago isn't alone: this girl in today's Ask Amy is 17, and also not allowed to date.

DEAR AMY: I am 17, and I don't know how to talk to my parents about letting me date. I've never had a boyfriend because my parents always said no.

I understand that having a relationship at 15 is too young, but my father has told my brothers and me that he was 17 when he started dating, so I think I should be able to date too.

I am the oldest child and the only daughter. My parents might be afraid of my getting pregnant as my mother did at a young age.

I am planning to go into the military service fairly soon.

How can I talk to my parents about this?

Amy offers some practical reasoning and compromise for her to try:

Ironically, if you are permitted to date while still living at home, this will give your parents an opportunity to see you navigate in the dating world, to check out your choices and to influence you in a positive way.

As it is, I worry that you'll go into the military with no interpersonal relationship experience. That could spell trouble for you.

Dating is important because it teaches you how to discern. It helps you figure out what makes other people tick. And dating is fun.

Start by asking your folks what might be acceptable. If they won't let you go out on a date, would they let you invite someone over to the house?

Lulu: "Yup, your parents are wrong!" That still doesn't really give her anything to actually do.

Ashley: She asked how to talk to her parents, and I guess Amy answers that. She tells her to ask specifically what she is and isn't allowed to do.

Lulu: I guess? I guess it's good to clarify the rules. I mean, really, she just needs to do what people since time immemorial have done and date anyway.

Ashley: Well, yes. Given the current world situation, it's probably safer to date than to go into the military, so why do they allow the more dangerous one?

Lulu:Yeah, her parents are cool with that? Maybe they aren't, but she'll be an adult by then.

Ashley: She can date in the military?

Lulu: I guess then she shouldn't date anyway now if she wants to train for following the arbitrary rules of superior officers. But then also no backtalk. Hers is not to reason why.

We make matters much worse

Given our focus on younger readers, I was pleased to find a syndicated column with the same focus, Tween Twelve and Twenty by Dr. Robert Wallace, not least because he's kind of an old guy and is probably square and out of touch and other totally hip and with-it phrases of today's youth, of which I am clearly one.

I've actually been reading it a few days and was surprised to discover that I had... no problem... with most of his advice! For the most part, he seems straightforward and sympathetic, and treats younger readers as human people with autonomy and the ability to make choices based on logic, which many columnists fail to do.

However, today's column revealed a key override: teen sex.

I'm 15 and have a real big problem. I'm both mentally and physically mature for my age. And because of this, I feel comfortable with a guy who is 21. Believe it or not, even though Bobby is six years older, he is very immature and insecure. He is afraid that I will drop him. He is a "mamma's boy" and I guess that I "mother him." Bobby feels comfortable when he is with me, and I know that he loves me because we have discussed marriage. Besides, he gets jealous if I talk to another boy.

I'm not allowed to date. My parents think I'm spending time with my best friend when I'm with Bobby. If they ever found out, I would be grounded forever. Bobby and I are sexually involved, and he could be charged with statutory rape. Bobby is aware of the risk, but he thinks I'm worth it. Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that I do like Bobby, but I'm not sure if it's love.

My parents are very strict, but they're very loving. I love them very much, so I don't want to lose their trust. Do you see any harm in our relationship? Please say no. Bobby and I have been seeing each other for three months.

Dr. Wallace's response:

Stop a moment, and let's review the important points.

First, Bobby is six years older than you and also immature. Next, he's a jealous "mamma's boy." Point No. 3: You're not permitted to date, and you are breaking your parents' trust by sneaking out without their knowledge.

To make matters much worse, you're sexually active. Bobby could be charged with statutory rape and you could become pregnant.

Finally, you're not even sure if you love this guy.

Break up with Bobby for all of the above-mentioned reasons. He will find another girl to mother him and you will meet many boys within your "age range," who will enjoy your company whenever Mom and Dad allow you to date.

Do it now! Waiting too long could be disastrous in many ways.

Ashley: I love the "to make matters much worse." Oh, please. There is only one thing you say to a sexually-active teen, and that is "use condoms."

Lulu: Yes. She's going to ignore that advice so hard, and I'll tell you why.

Ashley: You have to wait till you're allowed to date? I'd be in an effing cloister.

Lulu: That's exactly why! I feel like there are legitimate points in there, but when you appeal to unconvincing arguments, you make all your arguments seem bad.

Ashley: I agree in general that dating Bobby is stupid. She does not seem especially mature.

Lulu: She's all over the map. He sucks, but please don't tell me to break up with him. The fact that he's insecure--that she recognizes that--and that she doesn't love him are good reasons to break up, but I also kind of feel like she has to discover that on her own. She asks if there is any harm in the relationship. My feeling is that she wants to separate out the grown-up party-line bullshit and see if there are any legitimate objections. But Wallace embraces all the objections, even ones she's clearly already selected as acceptable risks--like losing her parents' trust. It's like he's begging to be tuned out.

Ashley: I don't really see harm. I see harm for him, but whatever, he's the adult, he can make that choice. I don't think 15 is too young to start dating, whether or not one's parents approve. She's bored, she wants some drama, that's fine. Don't marry the guy, but it's fine for now--she's racking up some relationship experience, and there's something to be said for that.

Lulu: Yeah. It's sort of necessary to have some shitty relationships so you'll recognize a good one when you have it. Trying out shitty relationships is the kind of mistake you can't talk people out of making. It doesn't seem like a situation where she's being preyed upon; I believe her when she says they're on the same plane of maturity. She's going to grow out of him, but that will happen naturally.

Ashley: She should come up with contingency plans, because her parents are going to find out, and the guy is going to throw a fit when she dumps him. That's pretty much inevitable. But beyond figuring out how she's going to deal with that...

Lulu: Use condoms and don't get married.

Ashley: Yep.

Cell block H

It's a brand new week (yes, Tuesday is when I start my week) and Ashley is home! Let's get back to basics with a teen-and-parents question from Sunday's Dear Abby.

DEAR ABBY: Like most 16-year-old girls, I have a cell phone. My father pays for it and I'm grateful that he does, even though I live with my mom and he's a two-hour drive away. He has been paying for it for a year and a half.

Every month when I visit him he demands to see my phone. Then he looks through my messages and photos. There's nothing "bad" on my phone, but I feel my personal space is being invaded.

I brought it up to him a few times, but he just said, "Deal with it!" He said if I don't want him to see something, I should delete it.

What can I do to get my dad to respect my privacy? I feel he wants to control my life. I want my own space.

Ashley: What I find odd is that he actually tells her, "if you don't want me to see it, delete it."

Lulu: Yes! What does he even think he is accomplishing? If it's a security check, he knows she can easily get around it, and has even told her the way. Is this just his clumsy way of finding out about her life? I think if I were her, though, I just wouldn't keep anything on my phone. Delete messages as soon as I get them, delete my call history every week before I visited. Just in principle.

Ashley: Precisely. Make it look as guilty as possible.

Lulu: Not even that, but just to thwart whatever he's trying to do, because it's irritating. Hand him clean phones until he gives up out of boredom.

Ashley: I mean, the other option is to plant messages that indicate her interest in lesbian satanism or something. I'm not sure that would help?

Lulu: I think a blank slate is both more innocent and more haunting. I also think this is a case where she could talk to him about it. She says she has brought it up, but I wonder if she has asked him why he does it. If he just wants to know more about her, she could offer to volunteer information about her life. They could have conversations instead of interrogations. She could try answering his problem with logic. But first she needs to find out his motives, because I'm stumped.

Ashley: She could also get her own phone, of course. The Virgin Mobile data plan is cheap. (I am not being paid to say this!)

Lulu: Yeah, I mean, that would solve it.

That's what Abby says, too:

I'm sure your father means well, but his attempt at "supervision" when you visit him seems heavy-handed.

The first thing you should do is discuss your feelings with your mother. Perhaps she can help him understand that you're mature enough to be trusted.

But if that doesn't work, you will have to figure out a way to come up with the money to pay for your own cell phone.

Lulu: I think Abby's suggestion of taking to the mother is bad. This is between her and the dad.

Ashley: Yeah. I don't see how the mom could help. It would do nothing, except once again to show that a teenager can't deal with her own insignificant problems.

Lulu: Yeah, I think the idea she should be trying to convey is that she is ready for an adult relationship with her dad: trust, interest, conversations, not bizarre check-ins. Calling her mom in to help undermines that.

Ashley: I guess his philosophy could be that she should learn to cover her tracks? So that... future employers don't find her drunk on Facebook or something...? That's the only semi-reasonable explanation I can come up with. But it's still weird!

Lulu: In that case, her deleting her phone records will make him proud. Maybe he is training her to be a master spy. Secretly, and without her knowledge.

Ashley: Let's go with that. It makes him seem less of an incompetent moron and more of a ninja.

Lulu: She should find out if she moves silently, like wind whispering through bamboo. She could poll her friends.

Ashley: While she's at it, she could poll her friends about their cell phone plans.

We'll all burn soon enough

Dr. Lovemonkey, relationship columnist from the Providence Phoenix, printed a letter in yesterday's column from a 14-year-old girl who is being harrassed by a religious popular girl. She writes:

Dear Dr. Lovemonkey,

I am a 14-year-old girl with a big problem. There's a popular girl in my class who tells me that everything I like is evil, and that I shouldn't like this or that because when I die I will go to hell. She thinks liking rock and roll and reading fantasy books is sinful. She goes on and on about what the Bible says and that the music, books, and people I like are all "evil." I respect what she likes, and I think she should respect what I like, too. I think that I'm okay but her constant put-downs sometimes cause me to feel depressed and wonder if I am okay. What do you think?

--A Little Confused

The reply is amazingly bland:

Dear A Little Confused,

Don't be confused. You are okay and this girl in your class is obviously only able to boost her own self-confidence by putting someone else down. Avoid her, pay no attention to her, and hope that she will grow up. You sound like you have a pretty good sense of balance.

Ashley: Wow. This response is so blah that I couldn't even muster an opinion.

Lulu: I know!

Ashley: Even though the exact same thing happened to me in high school. I think my interaction went:

Girl: You know, you'll go to hell for reading those books!
Me: Will you be there?
Girl: No!
Me: Sweet.

That does tend to end the conversation rather permanently, though.

Lulu: That might not be a bad thing. She doesn't say if she wants to be friends with this person. If she does, why? They don't seem to have anything in common. She may just be a nice girl who wants to live and let live, with neither of them judging each other, but I don't think that's realistic. You can only control your own (outward, anyway) judging, not someone else's. The best she can do is to be polite and cheerful about refusing to discuss eternal damnation.

Girl: You know, you'll go to hell for reading those books!
LW: Sorry, I'm not interested in discussing it. What are you guys doing in fifth-period gym, volleyball?

Ashley: The best thing is probably just to say no, firmly but politely. It's unclear if she's tried that. Just a basic, "I don't share your beliefs, so we'll have to agree to disagree" repeated ad nauseum. Any actual engagement is just going to prolong the conversation.

Lulu: Right, like you'd turn down anyone. Engaging with a proselytizer is like talking to someone who wants to go on a date with you, but who you would never go out with. It may be counterintuitively kinder to be brusque. She doesn't want to give the other girl false hope that she could be talked into converting. Eventually, the other girl will get tired of bringing it up, but only if the letter-writer doesn't give her anything to go on, ever.

Ashley: Although I still don't see a reason to be nice.

Lulu: Burn that bridge!

Don't tell your parents, Part II

An Annie's Mailbox column from 8/15/10 advises a teenage girl who wrote in about her depressed boyfriend:

Dear Annie: My boyfriend, "Tyler," and I are both 15. He suffers from depression, and lately it has gotten much worse. He told me he takes many doses of Benadryl each night to help him sleep. He promised he would stop once school was finished, but I can't be sure he did.

A few nights ago, Tyler admitted he had been stealing alcohol from his parents' liquor cabinet. He also mentioned that he wanted to try OxyContin and weed to reduce his misery. When I pleaded with him not to do these things, he said he could do whatever he wished and I could not control him.

I know he could feel better in other ways (seeing a therapist, using antidepressants, etc.), and I have mentioned this to him, but he won't listen. His parents are aware that he is depressed, but don't know about the alcohol and drug abuse. Should I say something? I am sure they would lock the liquor cabinet and make him see a doctor, but I know Tyler will never speak to me again if I tell them.

I feel overwhelmed and burdened with this knowledge. I want to help Tyler get better in a healthy way, but I don't feel comfortable going to my parents about this, and it's stressing me out. Please help. — Scared

The response is as expected: tell your parents!

Dear Scared: You are smart to see that Tyler is in trouble. His inability to sleep, plus the liquor abuse and hints about OxyContin and pot indicate that Tyler is depressed, stressed and desperate for someone to notice. It would be best if you would talk to your own parents, but if you cannot, then please say something to Tyler's parents about his increased level of depression. If they do nothing, talk to your school counselor in more detail when school resumes. Tyler may become angry, but you will never forgive yourself if you don't step in.

Lulu: It would be best to talk to her parents? What can they do?

Ashley: I can just see being the parent:
Girl: "Mom, my boyfriend is depressed"
Me: "erm. okay?"

Lulu: I guess "tell your parents" is cookie cutter kid advice that they universally apply even when it doesn't make sense. I'd give her the same advice for everyone who wants their partner to change: She can't make him do what she wants, so she either has to deal with what he's doing or break up with him.

Ashley: Yeah. The thing about advice to teenagers re:relationships is, either you give them the same advice as adults or, they're not mature enough to be in a relationship, in which case you tell them to break up.

Lulu: It is relevant that they're teenagers if only because he would probably have to tell his parents if he wanted to get, for example, a counselor using their insurance, but he still needs to want this. You wouldn't tell an adult to tell her boyfriend's parents about his depression even if he was, for whatever reason, on their insurance, because he's the one you need to convince.

Ashley: She should tell him to talk to the counselor at school or his parents or what have you, and if he doesn't make any effort, she's out.

Lulu: Right, it seems like she has done that.

Ashley: She didn't give the ultimatum. I.e. it's not about him, it's about her. She'll give him every chance to deal with his depression, but he has to be the one to do it.

Lulu: It's always unclear how much help you should give someone who is depressed, since it is an illness that effectively prevents the person from doing the things they need to do to fix it. But curing a depressed person is too much to ask of yourself as a girlfriend. She may sort of like the role of Concerned Handwringing Girlfriend to Troubled Boy, but it is on her to change the dynamic if she doesn't want it to continue forever.

Ashley: Yeah--when he doesn't address his depression, then she should actually break up with him (it should not be an empty threat).

Lulu: So that's the same advice we would give to an adult.

Ashley: It is. Telling her parents won't do anything besides show them that she's not mature enough to deal with relationship problems and therefore shouldn't be in a relationship. I'm actually surprised they didn't even suggest breaking up to this girl.

Lulu: Right, the advice to an adult would have been to break up, I think, but the advice for a teenager is, stay in the relationship, but involve lots of adults.

Ashley: How many adults could you possibly want involved in your romantic relationships? Poly people notwithstanding...

When not to talk to your parents

We'll admit it: the main reason Ashley and I thought we'd be good at an advice column is that we play the "How would you answer this question?" game with existing advice columns. Sure, when we do that, we get to pick and choose which questions we answer. But, let's face it, advice columnists do tend to drop the ball sometimes on younger readers' questions.

Ask Amy, for example, has a tendency to side against teenagers or to always, by default, tell them to come clean to their parents, even when it isn't relevant and we don't think it would help. Take the second letter in this column from her archives. Basically, a 17-year-old girl flirted with her 24-year-old stylist during a hair appointment.

I loved the attention, so I wrote my phone number on his tip.When he actually called that night and asked me to meet him at a party in the city, I was totally taken aback and told him I was busy. He asked me to call him this weekend to set something else up.I'm freaking out because I have absolutely no desire to ever go out with a man six years older who seems to think it's fine for a high school girl to meet up with him on a Thursday night in the city! I can't tell my mom because he does her hair. I can never go back there. What if he calls again?

Amy, of course, advises her to tell her mom:

Of course you can tell your mom — and you should. We moms really don't like it when trusted adults hit on our daughters. I realize that many women absolutely love their hair stylists, but we love our daughters more. You can assume your mother will deal with him directly. [...]If this guy calls, tell him, "I'm sorry, I don't know what I was thinking. You're way too old for me. I only go out with guys my age."The "you're way too old for me" line will give this obnoxious guy something to think about.

We don't think it would. (This is an old column, but for the sake of argument, we'll pretend the drama is current.)

Ashley: She needs to learn how to deal with this situation, because it will come up again. It doesn't matter if you're 17 or 24.

Lulu: Right. She gave her number to a guy and then regretted it; it happens. Her mom doesn't need to be involved. The sooner she learns to do this on her own, the better.

Ashley: And there's nothing "obnoxious" about a guy asking out a girl who gave him her number. The age thing isn't so bad. In a year, she'll be 18. 18 and 25 is okay, I've seen that work. The age is a red herring. She just needs to turn him down.

Lulu: Not calling back is a tried and true way to make it clear you're not really interested.

Ashley: So is telling him.

Lulu: Sure. But given that he's put the ball in her court, I don't think she needs to go out of her way to turn him down.

Ashley: If she does talk to him again, she shouldn't give age as a reason. It would come off as weird.

Lulu: Right, and I feel like referencing her age would give him a foothold to make an argument, because it doesn't sound like a real answer. It feels like a line she's being fed by an adult. There are better, easier ways to blow someone off. "Sorry, I can't." "No thanks."

Ashley: "I really enjoyed talking to you the other day, but I'm actually seeing someone."

Lulu: I like that one. Even if she isn't, he can't disprove it. Even if she mentioned she was single when they flirted, she could have met someone since then. It happens! And it saves face for both of them.

Other times, columnists may give sound advice, but overlook glaring issues that would be relevant for teenagers. For example, we like that Dear Prudence once advised a 16-year-old not to tell her mother she was buying a vibrator. (Do you sense a theme?)

Masturbation is perfectly normal, and a teenager doesn't need to check in with her mother before engaging in it. It's wonderful that you and your mother are so close that you feel you can talk to her about this—but just because you can doesn't mean you should. Part of your job as a teenager is to start separating from your mother, and masturbation may be a good place for you to establish a zone of privacy.

We agree with this, but--while it's not stated directly--we suspect the letter writer may have been considering telling her mother because she couldn't think of any other way to acquire a vibrator. Some sex shops have minimum age requirements, and most people don't have access to a local sex shop--just the Internet. And while the Internet is a great resource, you need your own debit card to buy anything, and you need an address where people aren't likely to be too inquisitive about what packages you're receiving. Many sixteen-year-olds might not have this. The unasked question is, "Should I tell my mother, or if not, HOW do I get a vibrator?"

We think we would need more specifics about her situation to give her a good answer, but our advice, generally: since the mom in question is unlikely to freak out about the vibrator if she finds out about it, you don't have to go into super-stealth mode, just be evasive enough to give her plausible deniability. If you need to borrow her debit card, say you want to buy a bunch of stuff from drugstore.com, and throw a vibrator in with lots of little cheap things that add up. Makeup, in particular, can vary so much in price, that it can really mask an additional purchase. You heard it here first.

We do like the advice columns, and we think they do a lot of things well. Marriage and divorce questions, for example, are not really in our wheelhouse, and are often handled well. But younger writers are often dismissed because of their age or inexperience. Their time in life does affect some very important practical elements of their lives, but such as it's possible, it's appropriate for them to start handling their own drama.