Return to the Valley of the Porn

Yesterday's Dear Abby was titled A debate on why men love porn. This is the kind of debate we enjoy!

DEAR ABBY: At a recent dinner party, the men and women got into a debate about porn. The men said men love porn because it shows women enjoying sex with abandon. We women protested that women who behave this way in real life are labeled "sluts" by both men and women.

Do men not realize this makes no sense? If you can't answer this, maybe your male readers can.

- No Fan of Porn

Abby responds,

DEAR NO FAN: I posed your question to a recognized expert - Larry Flynt.

He said that men love porn because men are aroused by the VISUAL. Then he added that women are more turned on by the written word, which is why torrid romance novels are so popular.

Lulu: Well, true. It's not really a response to the postulate. But I do like how Abby/Larry sidestep the whole debate, thus implying that the LW's postulate BS.

Ashley: Well, it is. She doesn't explain why women don't like porn, or why she doesn't.

Lulu: If i'm reading her correctly, her proposition is that if women in the real world were celebrated for visibly enjoying sex, she would enjoy porn?? Or, I suppose, that it's irrelevant why women do or don't like porn, but that men have a double standard by enjoying one set of behavior in porn and another in real people.

Ashley: I think she's just looking for excuses. But sure, let's take her at face value. She's concerned that what men like to watch bears little resemblance to what they like in real life. Well, that's certainly not limited to porn.

Lulu: Right, people saying they want one thing but actually wanting another isn't the fault of the depiction of the thing they want/don't want

Ashley: There are lots of things I like in TV that I would hate in a person. So even if they do only like slutty behavior in fiction... what's wrong with that?

Lulu: Like I like it when men cry on TV.

Ashley: Yeah, I like a lot of emotional drama. But real people in my life have a crying-in-front-of-me limit of about once per year.

Lulu: Yeah, I'd be like... okay, so... aaaanyway... (backs slowly out the door)

Ashley: I'd label them a sissy, to get it back to offensive gender stereotypes! So you can have a perception of women who enjoy sex as being sluts, which is a problematic assumption, sure, but there's no hypocrisy in liking that behavior in fictional women. It's not a double-standard, it's just a stupid single standard.

Lulu: Although I suppose pointing to that problematic assumption could seem like a natural response to the LW's men friends' defense that porn is good because it shows women enjoying sex, which seems like a pointed attempt to make it seem pro-woman, when it's really just that you like what turns you on.

Ashley: That's true. It does seem to be like, "well, no real life women enjoy sex, so I have to turn to porn." But that's the kind of answer you're going to get if you ask people about their hobbies--some bullshit that they come up with because the real answer is, "I dunno. I just like it."

Lulu: It's certainly the kind of answer you'll get if you ask people why they sexually desire what they do, because that is totally like, I don't know, I looked at a bunch of stuff until I got a funny feeling...
a funny TINGLY feeling. I liked it. So I did the same thing again.

Ashley: I actually find people who overanalyze their desires problematic. It seems like rationalizing after the fact in all cases. The reason it sounds hollow is because it is.

Lulu: Well, yeah, I mean, I feel like most of the reasons we give for everything is BS rationalization. "Why do you like that?" "Why did you do that?" "Why did you come here?" "Why do you want to work for LexCorp?"

Ashley: I WANT TO TOUCH HIS SHINY HEAD WHAT

Lulu: Which would turn into: "I'm looking for a challenging atmosphere where I can grow and demonstrate my ruthless leadership capabilities over a number of interesting minions." There's various theories that the process of rationalizing your desires makes you lose touch with your gut reaction, which is actually most indicative of your true wants. Like that cat poster study -- subjects who were asked to justify the reason for choosing one free poster over another made different choices, and were less satisfied with them. So the good news is that maybe if the person makes the guy explain why he likes porn enough, he'll get confused and stop liking it.

Yay porn!

Lulu: Whoa the commenters in Love Letters are pretty much unanimous that a guy who likes rape porn is ONE SECOND AWAY FROM SNAPPING:

Dear Meredith,

I'm a 31-year-old female. I've been in a relationship with a great guy for six months now. We met online. He's 32 and has a graduate degree and a great job. I've met his family and passed their test, and he's met mine and passed theirs. We live apart but spend three to four nights a week together at each other's apartments. So far, so good.

The other night was an unsettling experience to say the least. I was at his place for the night. I woke up at about 3 a.m. and he was not in bed. I could see the light on in his office so I got up and walked down the hall. As I approached the office, I could see him seated at his desk, enjoying an adult video on his computer. I'm not a prude – I know that this happens -- but what was unsettling was that he was viewing [extremely aggressive] material that was degrading to women, both verbally and physically. And what was worse, he was muttering to himself as if he were part of the scene.

Needless to say, I was appalled. He absolutely is not like that. He treats his mother and sisters with great respect. Our lovemaking is sweet and tender, almost too gentle. He's about the last guy on earth I would have expected this from. Now I'm concerned that he harbors some deep hatred of women that might work its way to the surface someday.

My question is, is it normal for a guy to view pornography that is way outside his everyday persona? Do pornography habits ever translate into action in real life?

-- Not Sure What's Behind the Green Door, Weston

Lulu: Meredith is pretty even keel about it, I guess, but she's clearly expecting the commenters to blow their collective fuse:

In college, for my women's studies minor, I did a thesis about feminism and pornography. It by no means made me an expert (in fact, I really phoned it in with that paper), but I was surprised to discover during my research that many feminists were open to pornography that on the surface appeared to be offensive to women. These feminists wrote that fantasy lives were separate from real-life behavior and that role playing was just fine. And for the most part, I now agree with the spirit of that philosophy. After all, we all know that I fantasize about a 17-year-old vampire high school student who lives in suburban Washington. If he actually existed, I can't say that I'd date him, let alone touch him. I mean, he's 17.

I believe that the answer to what's going on behind your boyfriend's green door can be answered with a simple conversation, NSWBTGD. Tell him what you saw. Ask him what he likes. Then ask him why. He'll either talk about it and explain himself in a normal way -- probably with some silliness and shame -- or he'll tell you something that will make you feel bad in your gut. Guts are important when it comes to this stuff.

And don't get me wrong, if the pornography you saw can be described as true violence against women, the answer is probably clear. But if it's just about role playing -- and you're OK with that as long as he's not some sort of secret misogynist -- then just talk to him. You'll get a vibe.

Because there is no normal. Some people are anti-pornography. Some couples watch pornography together. Some people's fantasy lives have nothing to do with what they actually enjoy when they're with another person. Only you can decide what you can live with. See how he reacts when you ask him about it.

Readers? Is this normal? Should she talk to him about it or just bail? Is it weird that he was doing this while she was there? What should she say to him if she has the talk? Does the "too gentle" thing bother you?

Ashley: Incredible.

Lulu: But everyone seems really invested in whether the porn is violent or not, whereas it seems to me that it can depict something infinitely violent as long as the actors were not actually harmed - I mean that is the standard we hold non-porn TV to, right?

Ashley: Right, right. Although I do find it creepy when people talk at the TV as if they're there; usually this happens with sports, the whole yelling at the players to do things. It's supremely uncomfortable for me. So maybe it's the same thing? You're hoping the people on the screen will "score"? But really, I guess I don't have an issue with any kind of porn, as long as no one's actually injured.

Lulu: Right, agreed, and I have read some pretty violent stories that had erotic intent... so...

Ashley: Yeah, it's hard for me to see where people would draw the line. I.e. I'm not really interested in watching porn, but I don't care if it's got the M/F adult thing, or foursomes or kids or whatever. It's all not my cup of tea, because I like to read my porn. I can't imagine caring.

Lulu: I mean, maybe if you're not into any kind of porn (visual or text) and you don't have any fantasies other than finding someone nice and settling down, then maybe you don't have any basis for understanding that it's possible to get off on watching characters do something you don't want to do in real life.

Ashley: I love all the comments that are like, "why is he sneaking off at 3am to watch porn? That's so creepy!" When do YOU watch porn, commenters??

Lulu: 11 AM. On Tuesdays.

We have no advice (we have advice)

Ashley: In Prudence, there's a teenager who found her dad's porn.

Lulu: That problem always comes up, and I never have any advice. Uh, ignore it? Everyone watches porn.

Ashley: Or reads it.

Lulu: Everyone consumes porn. Nomnomnom.

Ashley: There's a bit of a twist in the column, though.

Q. While looking for a movie to put on my iPod on the family computer, I saw a really disturbing title. "Wild. Teen (S-E-X)" What should I do? I have a feeling this movie might be illegal, and I am kind of scared to be around my dad right now. I don't want any divorce/court/prison-type things to happen, so I am clueless. I have two 5- and 7-year-old brothers, and I haven't told anyone. HELP!

A: As disturbing as your discovery is, I doubt there is anything for you to be scared about. Yes, the idea is creepy, but men viewing porn is very, very common. Your father would probably be more mortified than you are scared when he discovers you came upon his porn-viewing. Take him over to the computer and show him what you saw and say, "Dad, I found this when I was searching for a movie, and obviously it upset me." Let's hope he's grown up enough to apologize and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Lulu: Okay, so I guess this kid assumes it is child porn? Because it says teen sex? But teen could mean 18 or 19 or 27 pretending to be 18.

Ashley: Usually the latter, yeah.

Lulu: Or even 27 pretending to be 16, and it would all be fine and legal. Given that probably 90% of porn videos claim the female lead(s) are celebrating their 18th birthday, the fact that it has teen in the title is meaningless. It might not even necessarily be what the dad is into but just what is available. The fact that i have hint of lime taco chips doesn't mean I love lime, it just means I love taco chips and that's what was at the store. I DO love lime, but that is irrelevant.

Ashley: I also love lime! And 18-year-old girls.

Lulu: I would not do what Prudence said.

Ashley: Correct. Why seek out an uncomfortable discussion?

Lulu: There are two passive aggressive methods that i can think of if what she wants is to get the dad (or mom!!!!!!!!) to stop leaving porn videos in the open:

1. delete any you find

2. save your own to the same folder

Ashley: Find a gay video, save it with the same filename. See what happens.

Lulu: I bet he won't notice, because I bet he didn't intend to leave a copy in the My Downloads folder or whatever. So she can probably safely delete it, protect her young brothers' virgin eyes, and do her dad a favor in the process.

Huh. I guess we did have advice for this LW after all.

Now, we really don't any advice for the LW in today's Love Letters. We just find the letter spectacular.

A few months back, I began to realize that I was falling in love with a woman I have known for some time but never got to know well. Being a hopeless romantic, I penned a letter to her stating that I had come to cherish our time/conversation and that I didn't know where our relationship was headed, but that I was so blessed to have her in my life.

She did not respond directly to the letter, though at other points she had told me that I was "endearing in every way" and made me blush (inside and out, I imagine) with other generous (albeit exaggerated) compliments.

Over the following months, we texted every night before we go to bed, hung out after work, talked intimately about life, and generally appeared to be engaged in the process of falling in love as I have come to know it -- the breaking down of barriers and the full sharing of oneself with another.

Yesterday, after playing board games at a local cafe for a few hours after work, she invited me to her apartment. I accepted, not thinking/expecting that anything physical would occur, but with heart aflutter that this was yet another sign of a desire for romance.

After looking at photos/artwork on her bed, I told her, in no uncertain terms, that I had fallen hard for her. She seemed excited to hear this first-hand, but also cautious, because, as it turns out, she is in an open relationship.

Such relationships are not for me (though I certainly do not begrudge others for engaging in them), but I now find myself between a rock and a hard place with two emotions/thoughts: (1) A wish that she had told me about her status earlier so that I could try to emotionally reorient myself (though I admit that I probably could not have stopped falling for her), and, connected with #1, (2) A concern that our relationship, somewhat paradoxically, cannot continue because we are so close, but cannot take the next step.

Should she have said something earlier? Exclusivity isn't important to her but was it reasonable to assume it wouldn't be for me? Do I try to slowly move away from the intimate communications we've been having, so as to create distance while not being reactive?

Ashley: He's right. She should have told him. But he's such a tool that I don't care.

Lulu: Right?? I mean, I don't agree with Meredith's response, because she comes down hard against open relationships in general. I don't think that you're not allowed to have an open relationship. I do think it's shady not to mention your relationship with someone you're having these intimate Life Conversations with, and who has made it clear he's interested in you, no matter what kind of relationship it is. If she wanted him to be a secondary partner, or whatever, she should have made that clear so he could make an informed decision. But it sounds like she's not particularly into him at all, really.

So I do sympathize with him. It sucks to find out the person you have a crush on is unavailable in the way that you wanted. Realizing you can't be around someone you like because you wanted them as a girlfriend and not a friend is not paradoxical, it is normal, and it sucks.

But I still think that he is a real knob.